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-   -   Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat (http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/all-things-lithium/154998-drop-lithium-replace-fla-cart-boat.html)

Hunter450 07-12-2019 10:01 AM

Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
My 48 volt cart and boat will both be needing batteries so I'm considering going with a single set of (4 )12V drop-in lithium batteries to use in both. My cart is only used during hunting season and the boat is used outside of the hunting season so it's not an issue to transfer the set from one to the other. I'm thinking 100AH batteries will work but I'm not sure of what the amp draw is on my Admiral MOT-A4 motor is but I seldom push the cart above half throttle and cruise trails around 10mph. Each battery will have it's own BMS and I'll get a 4-bank 12 volt lithium charger and make it portable.

I know the majority of this forum centers around DIY lithium builds but if this would work, it would be the best of both worlds for me on land or sea.

I would love to see some comments/questions/observation from the lithium group.

Thanks in advance!

cricketo 07-12-2019 11:27 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

I'm not sure of what the amp draw is on my Admiral MOT-A4 motor

Up to 110A continuous, and about 200A peak.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/6eb84260f9c...&alloworigin=1

DaveTM 07-13-2019 05:04 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Going to a 100AH battery....running your boat you may get about 1 hour of constant run time? Doesn't seem like enough to me.....but depends upon the pond size!!!

Hunter450 07-13-2019 06:38 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
[QUOTE=Up to 110A continuous, and about 200A peak.

Thanks for sharing the Red Hawk chart Cricket, good info. The specs on the lithium battery I'm considering has a maximum continuous discharge current limitation of 100A and a peak discharge current of 350A for 3 sec. If I 'm understanding battery wiring correctly then batteries wired in series will be limited to the characteristics of one battery. So, on the surface with my cart and my driving habits, these batteries should be OK.

Hunter450 07-13-2019 06:53 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTM (Post 1635018)
Going to a 100AH battery....running your boat you may get about 1 hour of constant run time? Doesn't seem like enough to me.....but depends upon the pond size!!!

Dave, good observation as usual. I should have provided a little more detail about the boat. It's an old bass boat with a 150hp outboard and a 24 volt trolling motor. My thinking is when I put the 4 lithium's in my boat, 2 of the batteries would be wired in series to power the 24 volt trolling motor and the other 2 batteries would be wired in parallel for 12 volts for starting outboard and running accessories.

cricketo 07-13-2019 10:28 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter450 (Post 1635029)
My thinking is when I put the 4 lithium's in my boat, 2 of the batteries would be wired in series to power the 24 volt trolling motor and the other 2 batteries would be wired in parallel for 12 volts for starting outboard and running accessories.

Probably not a good idea. You'll get those batteries to degrade at different rates, then when you put them all back in series the weaker ones will be cutting out sooner while the rest will of the string is still strong.

Hunter450 07-13-2019 12:54 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
I typically only use my boat on 2 fishing trips a year, March & May and both trips consist of 4 days on the water and batteries are fully charged after each day. I will alter the batteries between the two trips, the two I use for trolling in March, will be used for cranking and accessories in May .The other 357 days of the year the batteries will be in the cart as a series pack. This is the primary driver for the dual use.

I very much appreciate the comments.

ThreeCW 07-14-2019 12:12 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Not sure what kind of cranking amps a 150 hp outboard draws but you might want to confirm that the cranking amp requirements match the capacity of your proposed lithium batteries. Does that "old bass boat" start up in under 3 seconds or it a 15 second starter?

You would hate to "suck the guts" out of your lithium golf cart batteries by using them as starter batteries ... I am not sure if they are really designed for that.

You might want to consider using a single $100 lead acid "starter" battery for your outboard and use the expensive 4 lithium battery set up for both the accessories and 24 volt trolling motor. That might be a safer combination.

Good idea to use a shared lithium pack for both your cart and boat :thumbup:

Hunter450 07-14-2019 06:44 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Not sure what kind of cranking amps a 150 hp outboard draws but you might want to confirm that the cranking amp requirements match the capacity of your proposed lithium batteries. Does that "old bass boat" start up in under 3 seconds or it a 15 second starter?

You would hate to "suck the guts" out of your lithium golf cart batteries by using them as starter batteries ... I am not sure if they are really designed for that.

Yeah, my old motor takes about 5 secs to crank after the long winter. A day or two before the fishing trips, I'll start and run the outboard at the house. Usually, just a bump of the key and she fires off.

The bass fishing market is pushing the lithium drop replacements and some of those guys (pro's-semi pro's) have been running lithium's in their boats for over five years and just praise how they perform. The 125AH battery seems to be the choice for cranking 250hp motors so I'm pretty confident the 2-100AH batteries wired in parallel will spin my 150.

Another neat aspect is each battery has it's own BMS and is Bluetooth capable. Just download the app to your phone and you can monitor in real time the actual condition of each battery.

ThreeCW 07-14-2019 10:16 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Are the lithium batteries used as marine starter batteries of the same construction as the ones being used in golf cart applications? When I was shopping lithium batteries I seem to recall that entry level lithium’s had maximum continuous discharge rates of 1C and the more premium had up to 3C (e.g. for a 100 amp hr battery, 100 amps and 300 amps respectively). Some batteries were even “claiming” higher rates.

What make and model of lithium’s are you considering? As you know, they are a big expense and it might be worth triple checking that these are the best for your dual purpose application.

Hunter450 07-14-2019 01:48 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
1 Attachment(s)
The brand of lithium battery I'm looking at is called IONIC. The distributor for these batteries is Lithium Hub. They have a website www.lithiumhub.com. It appears these have a 1C rating. Here is a data sheet on the 100AH Deep Cycle.
The good thing is there is a 30 day money back return policy.

ThreeCW 07-14-2019 11:49 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Is 100 amps continuous discharge sufficient to meet the requirements of your cart? You might want to confirm your present cart amperage draw before making a purchasing decision.

I was considering lithium for my heavy cart application but found that a continuous discharge rating of 200 to 250 amps put the lithium cells outside of my budget.

Hunter450 07-15-2019 06:41 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
I looked through the minimal paperwork I have on the Admiral MOT-A4 motor hoping to find an amp/rpm curve but no luck. The chart shown in post#2 of this thread is just a single point along the power band. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to measure amperage but maybe the Alltrax folks has some info for me.

BBBHC 07-15-2019 06:55 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter450 (Post 1635559)
I looked through the minimal paperwork I have on the Admiral MOT-A4 motor hoping to find an amp/rpm curve but no luck. The chart shown in post#2 of this thread is just a single point along the power band. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to measure amperage but maybe the Alltrax folks has some info for me.

There is very limited information on the specs to the Admiral A4 motor. Here is a link where I first discuss it in my build thread: http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/lithi...ml#post1612256

I emailed the distributer of the motor and I posted their reply on post #340 of the build thread. Their reply is less than enlightening... I never contacted Alltrax, to see if they had more info. If you do, will you share?

ThreeCW 07-15-2019 09:16 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Can you download a run file from your Alltrax controller to determine your amperage draw? I believe you will need to connect it to a laptop computer.

Either that or you could use a clamp on DC amp meter.

Hunter450 07-15-2019 09:21 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
BBBHC - I most certainly will provide anything Alltrax tells me. I ordered the motor and controller from a site sponsor so the controller came preloaded with the A4 field map so I have no experience with the Alltrax tool kit program. If can adjust the max rpms of the motor with the tool-kit program to limit the amp draw without making the cart a slug then I'll have options.

BTW: I followed your build thread and was jealous to find out the CC gas cart frame would easily accommodate the split 14 cell leaf setup.

BBBHC 07-16-2019 07:21 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter450 (Post 1635614)
BBBHC - I most certainly will provide anything Alltrax tells me. I ordered the motor and controller from a site sponsor so the controller came preloaded with the A4 field map so I have no experience with the Alltrax tool kit program. If can adjust the max rpms of the motor with the tool-kit program to limit the amp draw without making the cart a slug then I'll have options.

BTW: I followed your build thread and was jealous to find out the CC gas cart frame would easily accommodate the split 14 cell leaf setup.

You can adjust many settings in the Alltrax controller. RPMs being one of them, as well as different throttle/torque curves and such. I have not played around with them. I ordered mine from Dave at Revolution, site sponsor. Mine came preset at 6,000 RPMs, I have only run it at 4,000 RPMs thus far. You just need a printer cable to plug into your computer.

Yeah, the gas frame made it easier. Although a 14 module pack will fit in an electric frame, found out in another member's thread, just much tighter tolerances.

Hunter450 07-16-2019 09:07 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BBBHC (Post 1635944)
You can adjust many settings in the Alltrax controller. RPMs being one of them, as well as different throttle/torque curves and such. I have not played around with them. I ordered mine from Dave at Revolution, site sponsor. Mine came preset at 6,000 RPMs, I have only run it at 4,000 RPMs thus far. You just need a printer cable to plug into your computer.

Yeah, the gas frame made it easier. Although a 14 module pack will fit in an electric frame, found out in another member's thread, just much tighter tolerances.

I spoke to Alltrax support and they suggested I get the tool kit downloaded and log some real time information. If I switch to the lithium drop-ins I will lose 285 lbs which is probably close to hauling one additional person and some gear so gathering some information with the FLA pack will tell us a lot. I downloaded the XCT programming manual and like you said there are many settings that can adjusted, like rpms, motoring amps, battery draw amps, regen current amps etc. so I'm optimistic that this may work. I just need to find a Windows laptop that I can download the tool-kit to and take it for a ride. Once I log some data, I will contact Alltrax support and they will help adjust settings to protect the lithiums. After settings are adjusted I will do some more driving to see if I'm Ok with how the cart will perform.

bronsonj 07-16-2019 11:32 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter450 (Post 1635392)
The brand of lithium battery I'm looking at is called IONIC. The distributor for these batteries is Lithium Hub. They have a website www.lithiumhub.com. It appears these have a 1C rating. Here is a data sheet on the 100AH Deep Cycle.
The good thing is there is a 30 day money back return policy.

I found a 1999 Johnson 150hp online requires 150 amps to the starter to spin the motor with the spark plug wires disconnected. There was a 300 amp inrush current for a couple milliseconds.

That battery is good for continuous 100 amp and good for 350 amp, so on paper it appears this should be good enough as a starter battery for your boat.

Hunter450 07-16-2019 11:41 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bronsonj (Post 1636018)
I found a 1999 Johnson 150hp online requires 150 amps to the starter to spin the motor with the spark plug wires disconnected. There was a 300 amp inrush current for a couple milliseconds.

That battery is good for continuous 100 amp and good for 350 amp, so on paper it appears this should be good enough as a starter battery for your boat.

Yes, that was the major concern with the boat application. I will parallel two of the batteries for starting. Appreciate the information.

cricketo 07-17-2019 10:05 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
For cranking applications it may be worth to consider a supercap bank - charge it from the Lithium pack, then flip over for starting the motor.

Hunter450 07-18-2019 08:54 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cricketo (Post 1636537)
For cranking applications it may be worth to consider a supercap bank - charge it from the Lithium pack, then flip over for starting the motor.

I'm not familiar with a "supercap bank". The serious bass fishing group are cranking their 250hp motors with a single 125AH lithium battery so to keep things simple, my plan to parallel 2 of the 100AH batteries would provide 700 amp peak discharge current.

cricketo 07-18-2019 09:10 AM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter450 (Post 1636633)
I'm not familiar with a "supercap bank". The serious bass fishing group are cranking their 250hp motors with a single 125AH lithium battery so to keep things simple, my plan to parallel 2 of the 100AH batteries would provide 700 amp peak discharge current.

Super capacitors. There are quite a few videos of people building a bank out of them for engine starting applications.

Hunter450 07-29-2019 12:56 PM

Re: Drop in Lithium to Replace FLA in Cart & Boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThreeCW (Post 1635611)
Can you download a run file from your Alltrax controller to determine your amperage draw? I believe you will need to connect it to a laptop computer.

Either that or you could use a clamp on DC amp meter.

I did just that and made some test runs this weekend and logged the data and have sent them to Alltrax for help. I did 3 separate runs 1.) Flat road-100% throttle, 2.) Uphill road climb -100% throttle and 3.) Uphill road climb at approx. 50% throttle. The tool kit is awesome and tells the real story. Here are a few of the results from the runs

Flat Road Test 1:
Max rpms-3933, Max Battery Current Amps-216, Max Motor Amps-246

Uphill Test 2:
Max rpms-2900, Max Battery Current Amps-290, Max Motor Amps-273

Uphill Test 3:
Max rpms-1688, Battery Current Amps-120-130, Max Motor Amps-210


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