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Big Block Talk! Everything about swapping a big block engine into your cart! |
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02-10-2015, 08:51 PM | #1 |
Not Yet Wild
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
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Horsepower
Can someone please clarify something for me? If you have a 23hp Briggs vanguard twin cylinder engine and a say 25hp vc clone. wich has more power? is not hp Hp?or does the twin cylinder add torque you can not get out of a single cylinder?or is it simply a balance thing?
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02-10-2015, 09:00 PM | #2 |
Gone Wild
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,730
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Re: Horsepower
I will take torque over horsepower any day. The twin, by design, will have more torque than the single. Torque is what you need to produce rotation in the wheels.
This is how I always explain it... Torque is what is needed to get the cart in motion. Horsepower is what is needed to keep it in motion. If you have a 20hp, 40ft/lb motor driving a 10:1 gearbox, the horsepower at the output of the gearbox will be 20hp. The torque at the output of the gearbox will be 400ft/lb(minus the slight loss in the gearbox) |
02-10-2015, 09:10 PM | #3 |
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 4,094
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Re: Horsepower
Or, put into a little different perspective: horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you take with you.
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02-10-2015, 09:15 PM | #4 |
Getting Wild
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Wooster ohio
Posts: 124
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Re: Horsepower
Well I'm sure others will chime in with their thoughts but growing up around engines I was always told that the common rule is torque gets you moving and hp makes you fast, obviously there are balances but for comparisons sake I would say what your comparing is similar to the gas vs diesel debate. A diesel,like a v twin will obviously give you more torque in stock form than say a small block gas engine,like a vc single cylinder. when comparing a v twin 23 hp to a clone 25 hp, the clone has obviously been upgraded with performance parts to obtain that hp and for that reason in a drag race I would have to give the nod to the clone, however if your going to race with added weight such as passengers or pulling a trailer I think you would quickly see the torque difference the v twin produces and the outcome of the race would be much different. The biggest difference I see in your comparison is that the single cylinder 25hp engine is getting close to its maximum,safe potential where the 23 hp v twin is just the base of a building block with a lot of extra ponies still to be had with some mods. So again all depends on what you plan to do with it and how much money you have to spend, just my 2 cents worth
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02-10-2015, 10:06 PM | #5 |
VC 460 CLONE GONE WILD
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ray BY The Bay NJ
Posts: 10,593
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Re: Horsepower
IMHO a better explanation is that with more cylinders there are more power strokes in a rotation . So generally the more cylinder the more torque comes in at a lower rpm,as rpms increase then more pumping losses or more friction tend to start to come into play.Beyond that in this case there is more displacement equals more torque.
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02-10-2015, 11:22 PM | #6 |
Searching for The Way
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medina, Ohio (NEOHIO)
Posts: 11,421
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Re: Horsepower
I'm going to chime in, with a little different perspective.
I bought and built a Vegas Carts 440 last year. Racing cam, head work, billet rod, chromolly pushrods, 1.3 rockers, 32mm cv carb. Let me tell you, that motor is no joke. It's noisy as all heck, and loud. But she fly's. It will spin the tires in grass and gravel like no tomorrow. The cart did almost 41 mph, and I think it would have gone higher but I chickened out. It did all this without having that 32mm carb dialed in. It ran good. Real good. I'm guessing the hp was between 25-28hp, prob high in the rpm range. It would push snow, tow a trailer, it even pulled my 8800 lb truck up my gravel driveway. My biggest complaint was the noise, way too much valvetrain chatter. But it was a beast. Now this past fall I acquired a 16hp Briggs Vtwin Vanguard engine. The size of the engine wasn't even close, the briggs was almost twice the size, even though the cc's weren't that far different. On first startup I knew it was a different animal. Way smoother. Way quieter, no chatter. It's all stock, with the governor loosened up. I installed it in the same cart, yep I replaced the 440. I needed to know. Well....let me tell you....I was hooked after 15 seconds!!! Now this thing tops out at 25 mph because it doesn't have the rev kit, but it gets there in a hurry. I'd have to say it's equally as quick in acceleration as the 440, but, it FEELS way different. Now I can peel grass and throw gravel right off idle, the torque on this thing is instant! It seems to run out of steam after 3500 rpm, but it has real B$LLS! I have heard that the hp rating on the Vanguards is assuming it doesn't rev past the governor, so I feel like the rating might be deceiving? Maybe they are "DE-RATED" or something. But I'm sure if you rode this cart, you'd say the same thing I did....."HOT DANG!" Ok, I didn't really say that. Now, here's my twist on the comparison. Having used both of these engines in the same cart, I can tell you that both engines will get the job done. If you want to rev it out and go fast, get the clone, they are designed for go kart racing and are proven there. If you are wanting to putz around the yard, camp, or trail ride....get the Vtwin, the torque will be your friend. Also, as far as HP ratings go.... I think that's a little deceiving too. What I would like to see are dyno graphs. Just to see "how" the power is delivered would be interesting. I would speculate that the built 440/460 will make most of it's power in the 3000-5500 range, and probably start dropping off after 6500, depending on the carb choice. The Vtwin will probably make most of it's power in the 1500-2500 range, and start falling off after 3500 range, unless that engine has a cam and carb change. I've heard, with a big cam, rev kit, head work, and 2 bbl carb, the 16 hp Vanguard is a real MONSTER! Just think, I'm comparing a 16hp Vanguard to a 25-28 hp VC440. Think of what the 23 hp Vanguard would be like? I'm afraid with a rev kit, the 23 hp Vanguard would eat the 440 for lunch in a sled pull, but in a drag race....? I'm still not sure..... The argument continues....... |
02-11-2015, 11:50 AM | #7 |
VC 460 CLONE GONE WILD
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ray BY The Bay NJ
Posts: 10,593
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Re: Horsepower
I cannot figure out the loud bit.With my hushpower exhaust,billet rocker arms and valve last set as per Geoff my 460 sounds VERY much like my plowman's exhaust fitted g14. And this is both a the idle and full throttle.
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02-11-2015, 11:54 AM | #8 |
Gone Wild
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Flint, MI, USA
Posts: 656
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Re: Horsepower
So far, all of the "comparisons" are imbalanced.
Stock 16hp single and twin, of similar displacement, will be closer. Twin will be smoother, as a 90-degree configuration is balanced inherently, while the singles are a mess and the counterbalancer only does so much to quell the shakes. Briggs doesn't have a graph (I have suspicions why) for their 13hp twin, but looking at the charts, there doesn't appear to be any bias, and they http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocum...qqsNDvrS8lFix2 http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocum...qosNDvrS8lFix2 |
02-11-2015, 12:00 PM | #9 |
Gone Wild
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Flint, MI, USA
Posts: 656
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Re: Horsepower
Cast valve cover and additional shrouding may be what is making the twin quieter, as well as the added revs?
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02-11-2015, 12:35 PM | #10 |
Searching for The Way
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medina, Ohio (NEOHIO)
Posts: 11,421
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Re: Horsepower
You prob have stock cam? The racing cam I ran makes it really noisy and has louder exhaust.
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