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Big Block Talk! Everything about swapping a big block engine into your cart! |
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07-31-2016, 04:08 PM | #1 |
Not Yet Wild
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Chicago Burbs
Posts: 12
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Powerland 420cc Modifications
Powerland 420cc (non-electric)
I have one of these I plan to put on a buggy. The buggy is a Spidercarts Granddaddy. I plan on Removing the governor Milling the Head ~0.075" - 0.100" (maybe just a thinner gasket?) Mild port and Polish (what I call stage 1) Using a 32mm carb / carb adapter / air filter 8 degree offset woodruff key 35 lb HD valve springs Open Exhaust Header If I go any further I'd get the 55lb springs, a cam, a rod, a flywheel, pushrods, SS valves, billet rocker arms,.... Is there any reason (provided the gearing is correct) that, WITH THE FIRST LIST OF MODS, this shouldn't get close TO 6000 RPM? I've read the stock springs may float around 4500 RPM? Anybody know if these have a REV LIMITING Coil? A buddy is trying to put one of these on his mini bike drag racer and is having issues. He is not sure if it is the stock carb, or ignition coil. He can't seem to get it to run right after removing the gov and upgrading header and air filter. I mentioned the springs but he says it is not floating valves. Any info on Modifying these would be helpful. I am looking for around 6000 RPM. |
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07-31-2016, 04:53 PM | #2 |
Vegas modded 420
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West MI
Posts: 15,433
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
Some have stuck a rod in this engine, it could have been lack of break in time I don't know. If I were you and had the cash I'd get the rod and cheater cam from Vegas. That cam will get you some rpm you will not get much over 5K without a cam, and that cam is cheap. You not supposed to need all new valvetrain with that cam like others do, you need springs I was told and can run the button on both valves, might need pushrods if you going to scream it a lot. The rod is key, you really need it if you want to spin it hard, the cam is too the stock one is not that good over 4K. If you get the Vegas rod its longer (the 460 rod) it will raise your compression some, so note that or get std 390 rod and cut your head what you want. I only cut .050 and run 4 degree key so I can run cheap gas. That is cheapest way, really consider the whole 460 engine it has all the parts to run 6K rpm and the cam, really for the cost its worth it and the block is better to boot. You can put a larger cam in the 460 and some valvetrain parts for more yet, its nice you already have the rod in it. But all depends on what you want to spend, what motor you want. You can't run any cam with stock rod it will blow, running at 6K will blow the stock rod as well if you can get it to rev that hard stock. Most stock cam only rev to 5500 at most down a road in a cart, I think mine only 5200 or something and I have 1.3 rockers in it too. A 390 block will usually rev 500 more than a similar 420.
You must richen up the carb if you mod the airbox or exhaust, its a given or it wont run well. Some have problems with the plug get a ngk from NR racing or someone if you do. Mine still has stock plug in it no issues. If its lean you can put the choke on part way and it will run better, is how you can tell. Jet drill sets are $10 on amazon or get a torch tip cleaner and file it out. The lifan has a rev limit coil you have to buy the honda replacement ut2 from NR to get rid of it, its the only one I know of so far. Stock clone usually run about 4300 and float valves. Run about 5300 in a lifted cart with HD springs and advance key, give or take. I recommend running 10 gal of fuel through it before you go over 4500 rpm to break them in. It took mine a while I could feel it. |
07-31-2016, 07:46 PM | #3 |
Gone Wild
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Central mn
Posts: 1,036
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
I've done engines both ways, and I'd go with the Vegas carts 460
I have built up a duromax (almost identical to powerland) I have blown up a powerland (no break in time) And I've had a Vegas 460 in a cart For the amount you have in parts and time i do not think you can beat the price of a 460 When I did the duromax I did the Cam 50 Rod 150 Springs 20 Carb 30 Key 5 Push rods 30 Add the the engine porting and machine work and your getting close to the vc engine without the stronger block 40cc's and warrenty I don't think their is rev limiter in these engines I would not spin a powerland past 5000 rpm with out the billit rod Just my opinion take it how you want Last edited by Skoal82; 07-31-2016 at 07:49 PM.. Reason: More info |
07-31-2016, 09:16 PM | #4 | |
Crazy Ole Man
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Owego NY
Posts: 2,758
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
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08-01-2016, 08:48 AM | #5 |
Not Yet Wild
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Chicago Burbs
Posts: 12
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
Thanks for all the info.
Mine is still in the box. I really want 6000 RPM so I will probably get a cam, rod, push rods. Cam selection is the most fun!!!! I think any 390 cam works right??? Maybe the VC racing Cam, or the VC Torque Cam with Ratio Rockers. Small engine cams has custom grinds maybe 0.275 - 0.315 lift, 260 duration, 110 LSA? Once I get the head off, I will measure how far down in the hole my piston sits at TDC and I will measure Piston to Valve Clearances. Then I will think about ConRod Length and cam lift. I think the stroker crank is out of my price range, but a longer ConRod I can do. 4.450"?????? I enjoy building these engines and it is not as fun just to buy one. It will only be my second small engine. I already did a 212cc Predator that probably makes 16+ HP on 100 octane. The Milling will cost me around $50 with shipping. Much cheaper than Chicago machinists. The porting I will do. Costs me nothing. I'm not sure what these clone blocks can handle. I was thinking less than 30HP and less than 7000 RPM. I've heard these are near the limits, but perhaps that is with the reinforced 460cc block? |
08-01-2016, 07:41 PM | #6 |
Vegas modded 420
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West MI
Posts: 15,433
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
The clones crack the block around 30hp or more. The 460 I don't know, but it will do over 30 I read or you go to a honda gx390 block. That is what they say for a 420 block 30hp/7K and that is with mods.
You can use the longer rod (460) to help with compression but its only .040 or something. You can also get a forged piston and machine it to your deck height. You can also cut the head, you can also run a 270 head I think it is, one of the smaller versions of the 390 that head makes more compression. Isky is said to have some nice cams too I thought AGK and/or Vegas had them? NR can be helpful too. Just remember if you run it in a GC it may be more difficult to clutch a high rpm engine. |
08-02-2016, 10:40 AM | #7 |
Not Yet Wild
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Chicago Burbs
Posts: 12
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
Thanks again.
This forum has great info on modding these big blocks. Some of Geoff's posts (that I found through Google) were great. That is where I got most of my ideas of what these can or cannot do. I was unsure to what RPM the stock cam might turn? My buggy (525-550 lbs including driver) is lighter than most golf carts I believe, but I want it geared to do 60MPH at 6000 RPM. My built 212cc engine pushes it above 45mph around 6500 RPM. |
08-02-2016, 08:00 PM | #8 |
Vegas modded 420
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West MI
Posts: 15,433
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
My clone has the 1.3 rockers, ported and .050 cut head, custom 1" header into car muffler, car airbox, jetted stock carb, 4 degree key, HD springs, etc. It does about 5200 best I can tell with the cheap tach that dies at over 5K rpm, that is 38mph on 22s in my cart. But it pulls pretty good from about 3K up, pulls hard at 3500-4400, pulls hardest at 4K. Stock cam, all stock in the block except for governor removal. Above maybe 4600 power is falling off, above 5K it does not have much.
It might pull more rpm with a larger carb I don't know, but been told with stock cam you don't get much more. A cam would really take better advantage of my ported head and a larger carb. Geoff cheap cam said to pull 6K or near it. Its the stock cam with more duration, so it can rev free and blow right by 4500 where the stock cam falls off. It does make more power, not a ton, but the extra rpm make more HP for sure. A larger cam will do more but requires HD valvetrain maybe other mods too. Big cam will open the valves higher and faster, the cheater cam just opens them same but longer....I was told....so valvetrain gets more rpm but not more lift forces on it. Though running 1.3 rockers with a lower lift cam is same as higher lift cam 1:1 rockers, but I don't think it gets the lift a big cam does. You can see the lift numbers on some sites. |
08-06-2016, 07:46 AM | #9 | |
Searching for The Way
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medina, Ohio (NEOHIO)
Posts: 11,421
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
Quote:
If you are a speed junkie like me, you'll likely need more power soon after you do all this work. If I could do it all over again I would just have built the VC440 engine the first time and saved all that time and money. But....hindsight is always 20/20, right? Your engine built the way you described will be plenty fast for a golf cart, and way more powerful than a stocker. But if you get the "bug" and want more power, you always have more options! |
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08-07-2016, 08:05 PM | #10 |
Vegas modded 420
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West MI
Posts: 15,433
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Re: Powerland 420cc Modifications
I'm temped to get one of these just to fab up my carb and intake on.....then figure out what to do with it later. Though if I get another cart for me I rather run a twin or vegas in it as I already have done two 420 clones. And I really want to do a limo so larger engine would be nicer.
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