23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle

SuperDave4x4 · 10-13-2011, 09:14 AM

Im having some issues with my new 23hp Vanguard which has just over 10 hours on it.

I guess I should first state that this isnt in a golf cart but instead is the engine for my longtail mud motor..

OK, with that being said the problems that Im having is that when my idle is set at 1200-1280RRMs (no load) and I hit the throttle from idle the engine will bog down to the point of cutting off. However, if I push the choke into the "on" position it will Rev out just fine.

Now, if I raise the Idle above 1500RPMs (no load) the bogging will stop almost completely and the engine will Rev out as it should. Also this is with the choke in the "off" postion.

The engine will do this if there is a load or if there isn't a load, it doesnt matter. From my reading/searching on this forum I have found out that I have the Carb that does not have the 'idle mixture screw'. With that being said am I limited to how low I can set my idle before this bog will start happening? What can I do to correct this?

Im not really wanting to sink a bunch of money on this engine because I plan on buying a 35hp Vanguard surface drive mud motor in the future, but until then I want this engine to run right! Its very annoying to have the thing cut off when you trying to cruise slowly in certain areas and bog when you go to hit the gas in muddy areas or just out in open water.

Any help is appreciated!!!

sho305 · 10-13-2011, 11:08 AM

It is because the EPA locks the carbs. You can look up how to mod that carb, some you can put larger jets in and/or mixture screws if you drill out the caps or whatever they used. For a bandaid you can limit the air intake somehow like more air filter material/etc. If you take the stock airbox and muffler off and put high flow on....you have to jet them much richer to run right and sometimes other carb mods. You can replace the carb with something you can work with, like a mikuni or other motorcycle type carb that you can jet. If you go a little larger you might gain a little more power at higher rpm too large it will kill bottom torque. If it has an emulsion tube in the carb sometimes that can affect it as it acts like an accelerator pump sort of, you might find an aftermarket one or mod the holes in it, but be sure you know what you are doing. I'd guess the idle is lean, if that does not work the main is a little lean. There are also air jets you can mod but is more complex and I'm not familiar with that carb. Most of these small engines run the best a little rich, but the EPA is not going to have that. And if they get a little wear on them or something and run poorly, all you can do is buy an entire new carb. I can't swear here but you see what is going on. They are pretty crude, they just can't stay in perfect tune for long but I don't see too many EFI lawn engines.

They use these engines in lawn mower racing and pulling, also some kids drag racing and some midget circle track racing, and out in AZ they run some strange buggies in the desert with them. If you look that stuff up you can find engine places that work with them. NR racing might have some stuff but the gokart places tend to stick with smaller engines. Could be there are posts here on jetting them too lot of carts run them.

SuperDave4x4 · 10-13-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho305

It is because the EPA locks the carbs. You can look up how to mod that carb, some you can put larger jets in and/or mixture screws if you drill out the caps or whatever they used. For a bandaid you can limit the air intake somehow like more air filter material/etc. If you take the stock airbox and muffler off and put high flow on....you have to jet them much richer to run right and sometimes other carb mods. You can replace the carb with something you can work with, like a mikuni or other motorcycle type carb that you can jet. If you go a little larger you might gain a little more power at higher rpm too large it will kill bottom torque. If it has an emulsion tube in the carb sometimes that can affect it as it acts like an accelerator pump sort of, you might find an aftermarket one or mod the holes in it, but be sure you know what you are doing. I'd guess the idle is lean, if that does not work the main is a little lean. There are also air jets you can mod but is more complex and I'm not familiar with that carb. Most of these small engines run the best a little rich, but the EPA is not going to have that. And if they get a little wear on them or something and run poorly, all you can do is buy an entire new carb. I can't swear here but you see what is going on. They are pretty crude, they just can't stay in perfect tune for long but I don't see too many EFI lawn engines.

They use these engines in lawn mower racing and pulling, also some kids drag racing and some midget circle track racing, and out in AZ they run some strange buggies in the desert with them. If you look that stuff up you can find engine places that work with them. NR racing might have some stuff but the gokart places tend to stick with smaller engines. Could be there are posts here on jetting them too lot of carts run them.

Thanks for all the information! Ill look up modding that carb just for my own knowledge, but it looks like getting the earlier style carb would be the safe bet. I just need to find a used one from some one who upgraded their Carb.....

However, I hate replacing stock parts with stock parts.. Im addicted to modding engines.....

sho305 · 10-13-2011, 03:20 PM

There should be some threads here in the BB section on jetting them, most of the B&S is in big block. You can get a lot of performance parts for vanguards, sometimes you can use parts off the larger ones it depends. The earlier engines used carbs with adjustable main jets, but not sure any vanguards did. Some you can convert, you can buy a main needle for a clone carb but the vanguard lays on the engine not sure you can with those....as the needle usually goes up the bowl right where the main jet is, and into the jet. They just use a large main and the needle obstructs it.

SuperDave4x4 · 10-14-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sho305

There should be some threads here in the BB section on jetting them, most of the B&S is in big block. You can get a lot of performance parts for vanguards, sometimes you can use parts off the larger ones it depends. The earlier engines used carbs with adjustable main jets, but not sure any vanguards did. Some you can convert, you can buy a main needle for a clone carb but the vanguard lays on the engine not sure you can with those....as the needle usually goes up the bowl right where the main jet is, and into the jet. They just use a large main and the needle obstructs it.

Well I called Tony over at ECCarburetors and I can get a stock carb for 184+ shipping or I can get a stock carb from Al Hodge at Peformance V-twin for 234+ shipping, but he will Mod the bowl and rectifier for free.

OR I can get a Al's Mikuni carb kit for 250, but then I will have to buy a air filter, electronic governor, new throttle cable and throttle lever and perch. By the time I got all of that I would be in the 500 range...

So my big decision would be: is Al's slightely modded stock carb worth the extra 50 bucks???

I dont plan on doing anything else to this engine other than maybe ordering some exhaust flanges and making a custom exhaust if I get bored one weekend.

Anyone have any input on Al's modded stock carb for the 23hp Vanguard??

Flintrock · 10-14-2011, 12:07 PM

EC should be able to mod your stock carb for better performance for about the same price. Did you ask them about that?

SuperDave4x4 · 10-14-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flintrock

EC should be able to mod your stock carb for better performance for about the same price. Did you ask them about that?

I did not, I wasn't aware that they could mod stock Carbs.

Flintrock · 10-14-2011, 12:28 PM

Yep, you can send yours in (the last time I checked) and they will work it over to eliminate that stumble and give you overall better performance. I think there are several "Levels" they will do, but give them a call. I just over sized my jets and that's OK, but the next step will be to send them one to work over.

SuperDave4x4 · 10-14-2011, 12:30 PM

Thanks! I may just get that stock carb from him and let him work on it some.

Flintrock · 10-14-2011, 12:55 PM

If you do let us know what you think about it. I know some of the mower racers swear by them, but I can't remember anyone here ever using them.

10-13-2011, 09:14 AM	#1
SuperDave4x4 Not Yet Wild Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Kenner, La. Posts: 7	23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle Im having some issues with my new 23hp Vanguard which has just over 10 hours on it. I guess I should first state that this isnt in a golf cart but instead is the engine for my longtail mud motor.. OK, with that being said the problems that Im having is that when my idle is set at 1200-1280RRMs (no load) and I hit the throttle from idle the engine will bog down to the point of cutting off. However, if I push the choke into the "on" position it will Rev out just fine. Now, if I raise the Idle above 1500RPMs (no load) the bogging will stop almost completely and the engine will Rev out as it should. Also this is with the choke in the "off" postion. The engine will do this if there is a load or if there isn't a load, it doesnt matter. From my reading/searching on this forum I have found out that I have the Carb that does not have the 'idle mixture screw'. With that being said am I limited to how low I can set my idle before this bog will start happening? What can I do to correct this? Im not really wanting to sink a bunch of money on this engine because I plan on buying a 35hp Vanguard surface drive mud motor in the future, but until then I want this engine to run right! Its very annoying to have the thing cut off when you trying to cruise slowly in certain areas and bog when you go to hit the gas in muddy areas or just out in open water. Any help is appreciated!!!

10-13-2011, 11:08 AM	#2
sho305 Vegas modded 420 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: West MI Posts: 15,445	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle It is because the EPA locks the carbs. You can look up how to mod that carb, some you can put larger jets in and/or mixture screws if you drill out the caps or whatever they used. For a bandaid you can limit the air intake somehow like more air filter material/etc. If you take the stock airbox and muffler off and put high flow on....you have to jet them much richer to run right and sometimes other carb mods. You can replace the carb with something you can work with, like a mikuni or other motorcycle type carb that you can jet. If you go a little larger you might gain a little more power at higher rpm too large it will kill bottom torque. If it has an emulsion tube in the carb sometimes that can affect it as it acts like an accelerator pump sort of, you might find an aftermarket one or mod the holes in it, but be sure you know what you are doing. I'd guess the idle is lean, if that does not work the main is a little lean. There are also air jets you can mod but is more complex and I'm not familiar with that carb. Most of these small engines run the best a little rich, but the EPA is not going to have that. And if they get a little wear on them or something and run poorly, all you can do is buy an entire new carb. I can't swear here but you see what is going on. They are pretty crude, they just can't stay in perfect tune for long but I don't see too many EFI lawn engines. They use these engines in lawn mower racing and pulling, also some kids drag racing and some midget circle track racing, and out in AZ they run some strange buggies in the desert with them. If you look that stuff up you can find engine places that work with them. NR racing might have some stuff but the gokart places tend to stick with smaller engines. Could be there are posts here on jetting them too lot of carts run them.

10-13-2011, 03:20 PM	#4
sho305 Vegas modded 420 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: West MI Posts: 15,445	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle There should be some threads here in the BB section on jetting them, most of the B&S is in big block. You can get a lot of performance parts for vanguards, sometimes you can use parts off the larger ones it depends. The earlier engines used carbs with adjustable main jets, but not sure any vanguards did. Some you can convert, you can buy a main needle for a clone carb but the vanguard lays on the engine not sure you can with those....as the needle usually goes up the bowl right where the main jet is, and into the jet. They just use a large main and the needle obstructs it.

10-14-2011, 12:07 PM	#6
Flintrock Raised by coyotes Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central Texas Posts: 5,658	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle EC should be able to mod your stock carb for better performance for about the same price. Did you ask them about that?

10-14-2011, 12:28 PM	#8
Flintrock Raised by coyotes Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central Texas Posts: 5,658	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle Yep, you can send yours in (the last time I checked) and they will work it over to eliminate that stumble and give you overall better performance. I think there are several "Levels" they will do, but give them a call. I just over sized my jets and that's OK, but the next step will be to send them one to work over.

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10-14-2011, 12:30 PM	#9
SuperDave4x4 Not Yet Wild Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Kenner, La. Posts: 7	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle Thanks! I may just get that stock carb from him and let him work on it some.

10-14-2011, 12:55 PM	#10
Flintrock Raised by coyotes Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central Texas Posts: 5,658	Re: 23hp Vanguard..bogging of idle If you do let us know what you think about it. I know some of the mower racers swear by them, but I can't remember anyone here ever using them.

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