vanguard vs clone

onemorebeer

Clones, I have said before, I still believe, they are a great re-power for a golf cart. Let’s be honest of what it is, and what you can expect. The claims lately sound like a late night weight loss commercial.
38hp! Under $500… ok maybe a do it yourself kit for $500… Trust me, don’t have a dyno sheet to show, but I know…… Ok, 18 Hp for now, no dyno sheet.
The Facts, a 440 clone motor is about 27 Ci, single cylinder, one of the worlds best known and renown single cylinder motor is the Suzuki Savage, 652 CI or almost 40 Ci. This Awesome motor produces 31 HP at 5400 rpm. Owned one, I still lease one, In my rental in China. Full disclosure, I import for a living, from China as well as the Dominican Republic.
A 23 HP Vanguard is 38 CI.
Math by the claims. Vanguard takes 1.65 Ci per HP, 440 clone 1.5 ci per hp, Suzuki 1.29ci per hp
The History of the Honda clone is interesting. Mother Honda forgot that several patents were up for renewal , China, not being scared to bend a few patents here and there… the clone was born. Both sides have had their court victory’s. Any product that gets to us that is affected has a very slim chance of ever getting enforced. There have been a few slight design changes as the clone program has moved forward. Most think that as a whole, the merits of this case is settled. It is still ongoing in some forms in the courts, but with minimum effect on us.
I have not been without controversy on this site. My nature. But I cant believe, smarter folks then me, have not spoke up. Just because someone is a sponsor does not make it right. Tom at CPP got most of my money, I never got a price break, or a deal for a shout out. I did it because he took care of his customer. Did we always agree, hell no. Ask him. I am an ***. A couple of other sponsors, both left, one on his one, the other I don’t know. But I spend what money I can on this site, with folks that I can believe in. But please don’t lie or deceive me.
What concerns me most is the issue of developing this product, using the US companies for their Intellectual property and then shipping it overseas. Even though the numbers don’t add up, can you Imagine taking these guys works, or grinds, calling it your own, and doing it china. Think I’m wrong. This guy used Tom, to develop his clutch, now he is the west coast clutch dealer? A few years ago, on this forum if someone was to rip off Tom’s cradle, or Franks exhaust we would be up in arms.
My bike, a sweet one, 2005 victory, 92 ci. With what I did, and the engineers did, Polaris, been around the block a few years. Dynos at 94 HP and 96 TQ. If it was that simple for power they should have called The sponsor in Vegas years ago. They could have saved a lot of money.

BGW

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dcannow

And your point is???

hookm

I think his point is 38hp for under $500 is BS

onemorebeer

total BS

I don't think it can be done. I also don't think you can take a 18 HP engine, and for the cost of that engine in mods, or a little over, more then double its Hp. It's a good little motor, but I have not heard of any motor that you can double its power that simply.

rokcrlr

We do it all the time with small engines in kart racing, but not for everyday use. We have taken the 196 cc clones which are suppose to be 6.5 hp and kicked them up to 15hp for about $300.00 plus the cost of the engine, and very little machine work. Of course we can do our own machine work so I don't have the cost for that. Use to take the briggs 5hp and moved them up the scale to over 20hp.I know of a guy who is-was one of central IL best late model engine builders and he is getting over 50hp out of 390 & 440cc engines, but I have only his word on those, The 196's I have actual hands on with the dynos work with them.

Tonka329

I like the clone idea. A decent alternative to the stock engine. I'm in love with Tom's BB kits! Bolt on, all in 1 kit, ready to go!

geoffw

onemorebeer, what is it that you import exactly??

To clear this up for everyone in the most professional manner that I can, heres my side:

1. I do NOT advertise 38hp for under $500. I offer an 18hp engine for under $300 on my website.

2. To make my PERSONAL cart 38hp cost me well over $1500 and hundreds of hours of R&D. The engine runs on 100 octane race fuel and makes power to near 7000rpms. Never said you could do the same thing for $500. I said that eventually I would be able to offer a KIT for around $500 that would allow you to make in the 30hp range. This is still a goal of mine, but i have not yet been able to get the parts made because Iam preoccupied. Furthermore, these engines are soo new that Iam waiting to see what the go kart racers can get out of them before I spend the money to bring in more parts.

3. These clones have been imported for YEARS, Iam not the only one to do this. Home Depot, Harbor Freight, Carroll Stream, the list goes on and on. All I did was develop and import an engine that was more suited to our application. It comes factory de-governed and has HD springs and higher compression so it can be used effectively in a go kart, golf cart, mini bike, etc and SAVES valuable, hard-earned money for the enthusiast.

3. Im not sure why you think its soo hard to believe that these engines can make the power they do. Its a FACT, not opinion. Iam making FAR LESS than what the real builders such as Mike Clements, Parsons and many of the go kart racers are making. I built my engine to be reliable and still make good power, I dont need 50hp from it, but it has been done MANY times.

4. You do realize that guys are getting 60hp out of the Honda and Vanguard V-Twins. Do the math, 30hp from a 440cc engine, 60hp from a 670cc engine.......Now is it soo hard to believe?

5. Why are you bringing Tom from CPP into this? First off, I use and HIGHLY recommend his CVTech clutches and have bought from him before, I have sent 3 people in the last week to him for adapters among other things. Im not sure what you are indirectly accusing me of, but you are completely wrong and out of line to do so. I have not copied anything from anyone! I have spent 6 months R&Ding MY engines and I'm currently working on header and mount kits that will be made in in Las Vegas, not China. Not sure what you are referring to about clutches either. It may be an unrelated topic, but I couldn't tell with your lack of punctuation.

6. Its people like you that make me work harder to prove you wrong. I feel like you have an idea in your head that I'am some fat lazy idiot who just copies everything and tries to sell it cheap. This is as far as you can get from the truth and next time you are in Vegas, I encourage you to come by my shop and see what it is that we are actually doing. Iam trying to provide an affordable big block swap that still makes good power. Will it compete with a V-twin....NO, but it will be half the price and you wont need a lift and tires to make it fit! On another note, even a stock 440 in a golf cart is fast enough to seriously injure yourself.

geoffw

They are rated 18hp @ 3600RPMS!!!! The cams are .250" lift and they have under 200 degrees of duration at .050". The compression is in the 8:1 range.

My point is that they are SOOOO detuned, that with very little work, drastic gains can be had. This is not my opinion...THIS IS A FACT!

Call any seasoned Honda builder, Parsons, NR Racing, minidragbike (Charles Mosley), Mike Clements, AGK....etc etc

Its better to educate yourself first before putting someone on blast when you have absolutely no Idea what you are talking about.

-Geoff

1989Marathon

With a 66mm stroke, that motor has a 'mean piston speed' of 3235ft/min @ 7500rpm. Well withing the limit of reliability. As long as everything is designed around that, you should have no problem. 3500ft/min is usually the limit of reliability. That calculates to about 8100rpm with that stroke. Good luck with the new engine program geoffw.

geoffw

Thanks 1989Marathon!

I try to keep my engine below 6500rpm and it rarely sees 7000. When it sees 7000, its for no more than 3-4 seconds.