Vanguard or clone? Arguements please!

slonomo

Ok so after reading countless threads and sleeping on this idea, here are my thoughts....please add to this list if you think of something I missed. I'm trying to decide if I want a Vtwin Vanguard engine, or a clone engine from Vegas Carts. Both have their pros and cons.....

Vangard Pros:
1. obviously the choice when max hp/torque is the goal
2. sounds awesome
3. Briggs parts avail is excellent
4. aftermarket support is excellent
5. power potential is almost unlimited, depending upon investment

Vangard Cons:
1. more expensive, new
2. more complicated, two cylinders etc
3. exhaust is a big obstacle that people seem to struggle with
4. intake/carb mounting seems to be a common problem with clearance
5. less fuel efficient vs. smaller single cyl engine

Clone Pros:
1. power to size ratio
2. affordable, new
3. single cylinder, fewer moving parts
4. lower profile, easier to fit exhaust and intake
5. smaller overall size, fits better in cradle/mount
6. decent aftermarket support
7. power potential is good

Clone Cons:
1. doesn't sound as cool
2. parts availability not as good
3. ????

Just on the surface, using the "Ben Franklin Method of Decision Making", the pros outweigh the cons, in favor of the clone engine. Now, I'm not saying the clone is "Better"....it just might be the more economical/conservative approach.

My mind is not made up on this. Just simply defining the options. Feel free to try to sway me either way.....

BGW

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CART-ZILLA

vanny all the way i've done single cyl before but twins have alot more tourqe and more parts too...~ZILLA

slonomo

This is kind of like building that dream hot rod vs. building a daily driver.

For me, the cart is a "daily driver" and will be used to work around the house, haul firewood to the fire pit, pull deer out of the woods (although I've never shot one....yet), and cruise around with the kids and wife, some off roading.

What I'm not building (at least this time around) is a WOW HOLY S**T kind of cart that is going to race at the dunes or try to impress the guys at the campground.

High on the priority list:
1. more hp, dirt peeling type
2. lower rpm towing/hauling/hill climbing type power
3. reliablility & durability
4. quieter than my dirt bike sounding 2 stroke
5. as simple as possible to install

Low on the priority list:
1. top speed (25+ would be ok, 30+ is a bonus)
2. cool factor
3. max power
4. looks

slonomo

Ok, so how would you describe the clones power. Was it useful enough for what you used it for, or was it a scenario where you just "needed" more. Or did you just "want" more? I mean we all "want" more power right, but do we really "need " it?

I mean, I know that the ford 460 has more torque than a 302, but is it really better? What does the Vanguard do for you that the clone did not?

sho305

You can get all kinds of parts for the clone that is not an issue, but with a golf cart it has less appeal to spend a ton on parts when you could have bought a vtwin that is just plain larger (where torque lives). However I already posted a long post pointing out the things I would look for in an engine swap in your 250 enticer thread. Best to figure out what you want in the cart and your budget, and go from there. I know you are capable of putting anything in it so not subject to kits/etc for specific engines.

Clone power? To me it has near the same powerband as the stock G9 but way more of it. It works great stock with the stock clutches. With the cut head and timing advance it knocks on regular when the clutch drags at low rpm, but 2500 it gets to with throttle its fine, so I drilled weights and tightened up the valve lash to get more comp release its ok now. This would not be an issue with aftermarket clutch. If an average 40yr old ran away from a parked cart, that is about how fast a clone walks from a stock G9 in a drag race. Top speed I addressed in the other post, its $10 to get more speed with springs. The vanguard is larger engine, its going to have more power and they can hit 6K with a $100 rev kit not sure the clone will hit quite 6K but close.

One thing I did not touch on is the cart itself. With this clone and going 37mph I realize in a hurry one could get hurt on it badly. You blast down a trail with it and I have to let off because the suspension and lack of safety is not up to 30mph on a wooded trail. Its ton of fun to feel the power and spin around corners some...yes indeed....but this cart needs a better front and a cage IMO. I plan to ride trails for hours, I could but to be balanced it needs to go further. I'm not sure what to do because I want to build another cart more for that, I use this cart for lot of utility hauling trailers/wood/yardwork/etc and it does it very well with pedal start. I can't lose that ability. Depends again on how you need to use the cart. I don't need more speed with this cart only .01% of the time, so I will continue to maximize power in the midrange where I use it. It is easy to budget mods for it since the cost is low if you plan a little. I really thing I'd use more speed with a cage/front/etc then a cam would be nice in it. You just never know what you will find on a trial where I ride, should be prepared for it. Other hand with a cam is more rpm and its not going to want to tow stuff as well, it will be more of a toy than dual use it has now.

slonomo

This was a good comment from Sho305 on a different thread.

What engine you use is up to your needs. The clone is the cheapest by far (~$3-400) if you want a new engine, that is why I used it. Me modding it is just playing around. They run to around 4500-5K stock with just the governor removed, if you put HD springs in they run up to 5500 maybe more as my tach gets funny there though my head is ported and stuff. A vanguard is a twin and larger, it makes more power and sounds cooler. New they cost a lot like 3-4X as much, if you go used that is up to you I wanted more reliability as the clone should be fine with the stock cam no matter what I do to it. With a cam it needs a rod, the vanguard does not. The clone has no charging really, though you may be able to buy the HD clone for $400 that should have 18A. A vanguard with a $100 rev kit will run up to 6K rpm, just remember it will have near no power up there due to the stock cam. It just gives you runout to top speeds, the same deal with any stock cam lawn engine.

Most lawn engines you can tweak the governor to 4K rpm no problem, about what a stock cart will do under load the G2/9 shifts at 3800 I think but will rev to around 5K with no governor. Still not good to valve float an engine it can eventually break something...thus the rev kits/HD springs which tend to be cheap anyway.

You can go other ways say you find a cheap subaru 25hp or kawasaki, kohler. The Kohlers are used in pulling some parts are out there. The Kaw is a very good engine but limited parts also they do race them here, it will do higher rpm stock like the vanguard. The honda and subaru/robin you are on your own. The new honda you can't do much of anything with would not recommend unless you found an old model. You can go with a 25hp and put HS gears in, it works pretty well and can get into the 40s mph that way with good power and stock engine. The vanguard has the most common parts for performance, easy to find stuff and info on them, likely the cheapest to mod other than the clone. You can get all kinds of stuff for clones but have to be careful as they are typically built for gokarts and minibikes, not built for torque. Geoff has been working on this but the clone is smaller displacement and that is not where big torque is at. A stock G9 is 285cc, clone is 390/420/440cc, vtwins are what 600-700cc and such. The clone is light and smaller, way cheaper. Then again it is cheaper to buy a new vanny than build up a 30hp clone.

Still I am happy with my clone it feels like double the power of stock and nearly is. I must have around 600 total into it (the whole install incl new engine) that includes a custom made rotating header, new car muffler, custom airbox from a car, having the head ported and cut, springs/rockers/timing key, and some other things. It has more power than the stock one I put in, but not a huge difference, but will pull away from it and spin the tires in dirt better lol. It goes 6mph faster top end (37mph) with same tires/same G9 cart. But you might hit 35mph with a stock clone with just HD springs and a good header and airbox that flows, and still have about the same bottom (0-4K rpm) power I have. I've tried to do mods that give more power 2500-5K rpm with the stock cam, working on clutching right now and trying to make an intake for a better carb. But with the clone most improvements are at 4K and above it does not have the displacement for more bottom end. The carb is right against the shock in my G9, hardly possible to put something else in there without a custom intake. More carb may help but will help a lot more with a cam I might get in there some day. However lawn carbs suck, a better carb will jet much nicer is mostly why I want it on there. That is going to cost me well over 100 to do because I want a pumper carb, normal carbs are low as under $40 that would work better than stock. Hard to say what my intake will cost I been working on it.

sho305

I should add the clone has much more power than stock. There is a ditch near my place about 5' tall and steep. My stock engine would barely go up it; it would just crawl up. I can stop at the bottom and floor the clone and it flies up it. It will hang the front tires in the air over the top is how fast it tears up that hill spinning the tires. We did it with the stock clone with two guys on it and did a wheelie off the top, with two guys it didn't spin and pulled the front up in the air for a little ways. It was way fun if you hear me....

The only mod to the stock clone is the cut secondary sheave. It wore through and I figured may as well buy a new cut one as it pulls trailers and stuff at times and that helps it. It also helps takeoff it will rev faster. All it does is let the belt come out the top a little for a lower gear on takeoff. The stock clone does have an automotive airbox and muffler and has been jetted, that is it. I should stick springs in it and see what happens.

BlackBerryHill

I have no experience with a clone, but I do have the 18hp vanguard kit from CPP. Completely stock with all original parts this motor has tons of torque for pulling, climbing, and off-roading. However, I wanted more from it. I installed the rev-kit and high compression head gaskets, removed the governors and connected the throttle cable directly from the pedal to the carb. Now my cart has more than enough power for a variety of situations.

The CPP kit has everything you need, engine, ignition harness, exhaust, engine cradle, and instructions. I can run forever on a tank of gas (non-ethanol) with my wife and daughter on the cart while off-roading. Fuel economy is not an issue with this engine. You can buy the kit, install, and drive without ever needing to install additional parts. I run 26" tires and my cart is a Workhorse, so it's heavy. I have a roll-cage which adds minimal weight.

If you are concerned about the costs and additional moving parts, you will not regret getting the v-twin. I love powering up steep hills on the trails without any hesitation from the motor while stock carts struggle or can't make it up. My tires rarely spin because they are Vampires with serious lugs that really dig into the ground.

Vanguard all the way.

hookm

I had 3 clones & spent a ton of money on them,gave up & put a used 16hp Vanny with a 23 hp cam, rev kit,18 hp carb & gov removed.It doesn't have a choke & starts easily summer & winter,usually on the first crank.
Not bashing clones but I'd never go back.hookm

TheNewGuy

The clone is coming out of my Geep1 cart and an 18 vanny from CPP is going in. I have both engines already and the B&S is my choice, runs much smoother and has pressurize oil system with a filter. The B&S has more low end torque and no issues with keeping the battery charged. I have never had a problem with exhaust.

Ron


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