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Unread 02-08-2019, 08:24 AM   #101
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

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Originally Posted by DaveTM View Post


I doubt that the top on the 2Five is heavier that the top on my TXT. I have a Grizzly one piece "pipe top" (I won't call it a roll cage as it likely won't support the cart on a roll over. The rear part is just a "U-Bolt" on the frame.)

BTW....this photo was taken with 480-lbs of LA batts in it....and I also have different front tires on now. Not that any of it matters.......but I can be a stickler on accuracy!!
One of my favorite carts on here, shes a beast!
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Unread 02-09-2019, 03:24 AM   #102
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

ReLion batteries seem to have temporarily take their InSight series of drop in Lithiums off the market https://relionbattery.com/insight?ut..._hsmi=69054853.

When they originally appeared they were dearer than these Trojans so maybe they are having a rethink now that the Trojans have come on the market.

More info on them at New Drop-in Lithium Batteries
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Unread 02-09-2019, 08:32 PM   #103
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

I currently have six 8v batteries, each producing 170ah. Based on the calculation I’m seeing online, each battery would produce something like 1,360w (v x ah = w). Multiply this by 6 and they produce 8,160w together.

Now the Trillium batteries are 12.8v and produce 92ah (for the smaller), which means they each produce 1,178w. So does that mean I'll need nearly 7 trillium batteries to get them to produce 8,160w? This can't be correct, hoping you all can set my logic straight and not laugh too hard at me in the process.

Thanks
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Unread 02-09-2019, 09:44 PM   #104
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

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Originally Posted by wyolinc View Post
I currently have six 8v batteries, each producing 170ah. Based on the calculation Im seeing online, each battery would produce something like 1,360w (v x ah = w). Multiply this by 6 and they produce 8,160w together.

Now the Trillium batteries are 12.8v and produce 92ah (for the smaller), which means they each produce 1,178w. So does that mean I'll need nearly 7 trillium batteries to get them to produce 8,160w? This can't be correct, hoping you all can set my logic straight and not laugh too hard at me in the process.

Thanks
My thoughts:

In effect you can compare like this but actually the battery manufacturer rates the battery usually at the 20 hour discharge rate so you need to compare apples with apples. However, you are right and at first glance, the flooded battery has more power to give than the lithium. This is only part of the story though.

The flooded battery should not be discharged beyond 50% or you will shorten its life considerably whereas the Lithium is capable of outputting power for a much longer period without damaging it. Also the weight of the lithium is much less (less than half) so it doesn't need to use as much power to move the cart as the flooded battery does, therefore the amount of power lasts longer.

On top of that the lithium can be charged many thousands more times than the flooded, charges quicker and does not need the maintenance (water etc).

All told, you don't need to equate the amounts of power to actually get a better result and a more pleasurable experience from the lithium batteries.
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Unread 02-10-2019, 11:05 AM   #105
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

Yawood is right. It's not just the calculation of watt\hr capacity, it's the calculation of "usable watt\hr capacity.

So, if you have 8-6V T-105's your watt\hr is as follows: (V x Amp\hr) 48x185=8,880. However, since you can only "use" 50% of that total (or kill your batteries) the usable amount is 50% x 8,880 or 4,440.

For 6-8V it's 48x145=6,960. Then 6,960x50%=3,480.

For a 64amp\hr 7 module Leaf it's 57.4x64=3,674. Then 80% of that = 2,939 usable amp\hr.

For a 100amp\hr lithium it would be 57.4x100=6,560. Then 80% of that = 5,248 usable amp\hr.

In addition, with the Lithium you have steady uphill "pulls", no watering, no battery terminal maintenance, and much less weight to haul around.

FWIW
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Unread 02-10-2019, 02:34 PM   #106
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

Thanks fellas.

Okay, so my current power is 6-8v 170ah = 8,160 amp/hr ... corrected 4,080 useable amp/hr according to above logic.

If I go with Trillium 4-12.8v 92ah = 4,710w ... corrected to 3,768 usable amp/hr. This would equal a net loss of 311 amp/hr which I guess you guys are saying isn't a big deal given the weight loss, on demand power etc.

Now... to save money... what if I went with 3-12.8v 110ah Trillium's? After all the math, it would end up at 3,379 total amp/hr for a net loss of 700 amp/hr from what is currently being produced with the 6-8v flooded ones.

Again, reason I'm looking at Trillium is because while more expensive, they have BMS on board each batt and my QuiQ charger just needs to be swapped to the AGM algorithm according to Trojan. So I wouldn't have to change any parts at all from what I understand.

All that said and if this is so great, why can't I find a single mention or picture of an actual DIY Trillium conversion online?
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Unread 02-10-2019, 04:21 PM   #107
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

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Originally Posted by wyolinc View Post
All that said and if this is so great, why can't I find a single mention or picture of an actual DIY Trillium conversion online?
Really because they've only been available on the market for a couple of weeks.
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Unread 02-10-2019, 04:46 PM   #108
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

WYOLINC, You have run into the 20-hour rate scam. I don't know how the Trojan lithium is rated, but lithium batteries in general are rated at a "1 hour rate" (1C), lead batteries are deceptively rated at a 20 hour rate. Imagine just how useful your cart would be if you could only drive it at speeds that would allow you to operate for 20 hours, drawing a constant rate of 8.5 amps in your lead example. (8.5 amps is going to be well below walking speed, if it could even be done). Lead batteries generally provide 56% of their 20-hour rating when providing energy at a 1-hour rate.
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Unread 02-11-2019, 08:43 AM   #109
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTM View Post
Yawood is right. It's not just the calculation of watt\hr capacity, it's the calculation of "usable watt\hr capacity.

So, if you have 8-6V T-105's your watt\hr is as follows: (V x Amp\hr) 48x185=8,880. However, since you can only "use" 50% of that total (or kill your batteries) the usable amount is 50% x 8,880 or 4,440.

For 6-8V it's 48x145=6,960. Then 6,960x50%=3,480.

For a 64amp\hr 7 module Leaf it's 57.4x64=3,674. Then 80% of that = 2,939 usable amp\hr.This should be Watt\hr. Not amp\hr
For a 100amp\hr lithium it would be 57.4x100=6,560. Then 80% of that = 5,248 usable amp\hr.This should be Watt\hr. Not amp\hr

In addition, with the Lithium you have steady uphill "pulls", no watering, no battery terminal maintenance, and much less weight to haul around.

FWIW
Made my terminology corrections in RED
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Unread 02-18-2019, 09:12 PM   #110
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Default Re: Trojan Lithium?

I ended up getting a gr8 deal on a set of 2019 Trojans. That will keep me going for several more years, at which point lithium’s will hopefully be cheaper and more main stream in carts. I’ll keep checking back to see how the discussion unfolds and evolves here. All best to a great community!
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