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Unread 07-29-2009, 09:51 PM   #51
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy couple of weeks. The cart I have is a 2001 Club Car Villager 6 that originally had a 101909902 Vers. 1.35S OBC in it.

It was replaced with a Club Car:

Onboard Computer Kit for vehicles with serial numbers 9501-417455 through 9752, which comes in four variants:
101800606
101800607
101800608
101800609

each of which includes an OBC, a Battery Warning Light, and a Fuse Kit (which is the pin that goes in the charger connector and half of the fuse holder).

The OBC that comes with each kit is:
Kit P/N OBC P/N
101800606 101956101
101800607 101956102
101800608 101956103
101800609 101956104

I got the 101956101 computer variant, which is mfd by Lester for Club Car.

Reportedly these computers have been successful as replacements in other Club cars, but I've had decidedly mixed results.

First, since the 3-pin connector was incompatible, they spliced the 'new' computer into the old (Yellow, Brown, Red) wires. I can't see that this makes any difference, as they seem to have gotten the wiring right.

The first charge appeared to work, but follow-on charges drop to 2 amps (instead of the usual 4 amps), and then runs forever (or until the computer shuts it off after 16 hours).

I ran the cart all the way down till the battery meter was flashing, and then it seemed to work OK for a couple of charges, now it's back to timing out after 16 hours at 2 amps. Running it down again didn't seem to help.

I suspect I'll be replacing the computer with the correct one, and getting a CDM to determine how many Energy Units it thinks are going out of the batteries, and what the last charge termination type was, and etc.
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Unread 07-30-2009, 10:10 AM   #52
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

DR BOB- wonderful explanation of OBC operation and parts required. Not to be critical of your fine acurate testing BUT?
On 7-9-2009 post with pictures of OBC torn down you added a Tutorial Voltage Report chart that stated that you were using a MULTI BALL ANTIFREEZE TYPE TESTER as being accurate??? I would be more than happy to send you an OLD FASHIONED UNIT with a ACCURATE SINGLE FLOAT HYDROMETER WITH TEMPERATURE CORRECTING SCALE? I have been in the auto and battery field since 1945 and have used the above hydrometer to correctly analize battery problems during the whole period. When the multi ball type of antifreeze tester came out the manufacturers need a broader field so pushed them as accurate battery acid testers WHICH THEY ARE NOT?
JUST MY .02 WORTH.
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Unread 07-30-2009, 01:12 PM   #53
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Float hydrometers in my experience are really difficult to use reliably. Harbor Freight has an optical (diffraction-based) instrument, called a:

Battery Fluid and Coolant Refractometer
ITEM 90716-6VGA

Best $30 I ever spent. Put a single drop of electrolyte on the slide, close the cover, and read the SG off an optical scale. Dry it off, repeat. No floats sticking to the side of the tube, no question about float calibration, no rotting rubber bits.

Dunno if URLs will survive this BB, but try:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90716
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Unread 07-30-2009, 02:26 PM   #54
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

WPNS-I still say that ( anything is better than a multi ball antifreeze tester ) as the range from each ball amounts to TOOO MUCH VARIATION and with NO CORRECTION FOR TEMPERATURE? EXAMPLE take (a bunch of ) multi ball testers from several different stores and put them in the same battery cell and see how much of a difference you get? Try the same thing with a GOOD AMERICAN MADE HYDROMETERs and see what you get for readings? I guess that since 1945 I have over come any problems with float hang ups? Used to repair and replace battery cells in older batterys until the advent of plastic and sealed batterys came along.
I tried the Refractometers some years ago and found them not to be that accurate at least at that time compared to my hydrometer? Im sure they have improved some by now?? Great antifreeze testers as range is close enough not to matter.
I didnt need to have expensive digital meters, load testers, etc that came along later on when I could diagnose just as well with hydrometer.
Hard to teach old dogs new tricks?
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Unread 07-31-2009, 02:42 AM   #55
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD MEC View Post
DR BOB- wonderful explanation of OBC operation and parts required. Not to be critical of your fine acurate testing BUT?
On 7-9-2009 post with pictures of OBC torn down you added a Tutorial Voltage Report chart that stated that you were using a MULTI BALL ANTIFREEZE TYPE TESTER as being accurate??? I would be more than happy to send you an OLD FASHIONED UNIT with a ACCURATE SINGLE FLOAT HYDROMETER WITH TEMPERATURE CORRECTING SCALE? I have been in the auto and battery field since 1945 and have used the above hydrometer to correctly analize battery problems during the whole period. When the multi ball type of antifreeze tester came out the manufacturers need a broader field so pushed them as accurate battery acid testers WHICH THEY ARE NOT?
JUST MY .02 WORTH.
Hi,

OK I am BUSTED. I forgot those notes were on that plot. I had one of the good old fashion single float, temperature compensated hydrometers, but the thing was dirty from years of use. When I took it apart to clean, the rubber fell apart. So I got a 4 ball unit at ACE Hardware, as that is what my "battery guy" uses. At the time, I suspected I had a bad battery, so I figured I would use something he was familiar with, in case I had to make a case for a replacement.

You are right about their consistency. I got another 4 ball unit at Walmart and the 2 agree to about 1 ball, which is not that good since only 4 balls cover their measurement range.

Now I have a relatively inexpensive EZRed SP101
http://www.ezred.com/Product_Pages/B...er_EZSP101.htm

which has the advantage of automatic temp compensation (not much of an issue in Florida), an expanded numerical readout scale which for me, is much faster to read than the good old style. It is easily readable without taking it to eye level and is much less susceptible to hanging bubbles (on the float) and wall resistance than the 4 ball testers.

However a good OLD FASHIONED UNIT with a ACCURATE SINGLE FLOAT HYDROMETER WITH TEMPERATURE CORRECTING SCALE is still the gold standard.. One day, I will get another one of them.

I do not depend on the hydrometer for determining anything except the approximate state of charge of the battery. It is pretty straight forward to calculate the number of ampere-hours under the amps vs time charging curve by breaking it into a few "straight-line" sections and multiplying the average current by the time in that section. If you multiply the amp-hours in each section by the average charging voltage during that section, you get the watt hours for that section. Adding the results for the sections gives the total watt hours added during the charge.

From the manufacturer's specs, you can use the number of minutes (convert to hours) that the battery should operate at normal running amps while it maintains above 1.75 volts per cell, to get it's capacity. Use 1.92 volts as the average cell voltage while the battery discharges to 1.75 volts. Comparing this to what you restored on full charge, and you get the % capacity you had when you started the charge.

For a Trojan T875, use 117 minutes at 56 amps at an average of 7.68 volts.

This gives 117/60 x 56 x 7.68 = 839 watt-hours. So a 6 pack of these batteries has 5.034 kilowatt-hours.

If you restored 2000 watt-hours, then the battery was at 2000/5034 = 39.7% discharged when you started charging it.

I will give a full example if anyone needs it.

Getting the Club Car CDM meter will give you a relative readout much more directly as determined by the OBC. If it reads that 43 EU have been used since last charge, then the battery is 43% discharged as far as the OBC is concerned.

I do not know if the OBC is smart enough to adjust for decreasing capacity as the batteries age or to a new maximum capacity if you replace the T875s with batteries of lessor or greater capacity. It has the possibility to do both of those things if you run the batteries down to 42 volts (for a 48 volt T875 pack), which the OBC senses, as it can then measure the amount of energy needed to fully charge the pack and could use that as the new pack capacity.
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Unread 07-31-2009, 07:08 AM   #56
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

A couple of minor corrections, Dr. Bob:

When you charge, you also return a 10% overcharge to equalize the batteries and balance out the effects of the (horrible, IMHO) 12V "regulator" circuit, so if you returned 2000 KWHR, that's 2000/5500.

I believe that EU, "Energy Units" is KWHR, strangely Trojan doesn't have it on their site, but it's at
http://www.enalmex.com/docpdf/bateri...0a%20t-605.pdf

Trojan warranties their batteries using (L)EU, and since Club Car reports them, fleet owners can read them out and get warranty service.
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Unread 07-31-2009, 10:05 AM   #57
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

DOC BOB-- I feel that the OBC seems to adjust all factory CC chargers to a preset facture, and any battery capacity differences and cell differences throw it off, but to what amount is unknown by me? I had a known cart that the battery charge rate was the same until batterys were replaced by dealer with ( low grade cheap batterys ) that from then on took more than 24 hours at a higher amp rate to charge back up to shut off point. I have seen that when one battery in a pack starts going bad the OBC signals the charger to start OVER CHARGING AT HIGHER RATES than normal, and run at a low rate ( less than 5 amps ) for a much longer period than normal? This must be the OBC trying to balance an increasingly bad battery?
Sorry I am NOT a learned person so my terminology and spelling are not the best, so please excuse?
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Unread 08-01-2009, 02:15 AM   #58
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpns View Post
Reportedly these (Lester built) computers have been successful as replacements in other Club cars, but I've had decidedly mixed results.

First, since the 3-pin connector was incompatible, they spliced the 'new' computer into the old (Yellow, Brown, Red) wires. I can't see that this makes any difference, as they seem to have gotten the wiring right.

The first charge appeared to work, but follow-on charges drop to 2 amps (instead of the usual 4 amps), and then runs forever (or until the computer shuts it off after 16 hours).

I ran the cart all the way down till the battery meter was flashing, and then it seemed to work OK for a couple of charges, now it's back to timing out after 16 hours at 2 amps. Running it down again didn't seem to help.

I suspect I'll be replacing the computer with the correct one, and getting a CDM to determine how many Energy Units it thinks are going out of the batteries, and what the last charge termination type was, and etc.
Hi Wpns

Thanks for the breakdown of the replacement OBCs.

You many not have to give up on the replacement OBC just yet. I too, got a new CC OBC for my 2001 DS CC and it took perhaps a half dozen long rides of 20 to 40 miles before it settled into a consistent pattern. I am not entirely happy with it - the yellow lamp comes on after 20 miles (50% discharged) with 1 year old good T890 batteries, but I can learn to live with that as long as it is consistent.

As I mentioned in my last message, the OBC seems to have the hardware to adapt to a new batteries (or a new OBC adapt to existing batteries in your case). IF it were to do so, it would need to measure the capacity of the batteries it has been married to to know what their capacity is. So the point of discharge at which the OBC starts the yellow lamp flashing may not be nearly what you expect while on the honeymoon.

Presuming you have good batteries and charger, and can lay your hands on a digital voltmeter (DVM), I would try this:

1. Securely connect the DVM to the most positive and most negative terminals of the battery pack. Run the leads so the DVM can be placed on the seat beside you while you drive the cart. Do not pinch the leads in any manner that may break their insulation and cause them to short together or to any metal, e.g. the frame.

2. Fully charge the batteries.

(Note: At the end of the charge, you may see the pack voltage get to the 60-62 volt range (48 volt pack) - do not worry. This will be during the charge phase when the current is low (< ~4 amps). If you let the cart sit for 6 to 24 hours, the pack voltage should drop to about 51 volts, indicating a full charge.

3. Find an appropriate, relatively level area and drive the cart at about 15 to 20 MPH (stopping and slowing as necessary) until the voltage, while driving at 18 MPH (or nearly top speed for a stock car if you do not have a speedometer) drops to 42 volts for a 48 volt pack (to 31.5 volts for a 36 volt pack). This is roughly equivalent to discharging the pack at the high, but safe, test current used by Trojan and many other manufactures when running down their batteries "fully" (but not dead - never do that). We are not measuring the battery pack capacity here (that would require recording the current constantly), but rather just running the batteries down to the manufacturer's "completely discharged level" fairly quickly at a safe current. The batteries at this state of discharge are probably "way, way past" when the yellow lamp came on, but will run the cart for a couple more miles on the flat.Try to avoid the extra miles though by arriving "home" just after the voltage hits 42 volts at speed. The object is to "Calibrate" the OBC (if it can be calibrated) upon recharging the batteries.

4. Now charge the batteries fully. It will probably take the full sixteen hours. At the end, you will likely be in an "equalization" phase, with a charging current in the range of 3 amperes and the voltage again in the 60 to 62 volts range. The charger ammeter may not be too accurate at low amperage, so don't get to excited if the meter reads 2 to 4 amps vs 3 amps.

By doing this, you have given the OBC a chance to measure a near maximum amount of replenishment energy to the battery. Hopefully, it will retain this (less ~10% for charging inefficiency) as the new "maximum battery capacity" and react accordingly.

If your OBC/battery system still does perform normally, you may have to train it a couple more times. If it fails after this, I would say either something in the system is faulty or the OBC can not calibrate correctly to the battery pack. Since I did not read anything in the Club Car/Lester patent filings about doing this, perhaps (alas) calibration is not done. In that case, IMO, the OBC would have to be pre-programmed with the correct parameters for the batteries CC furnished in the model of car it is supposed to be used in.

Even if the OBC will not self calibrate, it may "adapt" by storing the parameters that it can in temporary memory and give more consistent lamp warnings, charging control and information (if you have a CDM) than it did when you first marry an OBC with a battery pack. I believe that is what my OBC did.

BTW, that "temporary" information is also lost when you disconnect the battery voltage to the OBC for more than (probably) a few seconds for any reason - much like even a short power outage will cause your computer to reboot.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 03:10 AM   #59
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD MEC View Post
DOC BOB-- I feel that the OBC seems to adjust all factory CC chargers to a preset facture, and any battery capacity differences and cell differences throw it off, but to what amount is unknown by me? I had a known cart that the battery charge rate was the same until batterys were replaced by dealer with ( low grade cheap batterys ) that from then on took more than 24 hours at a higher amp rate to charge back up to shut off point. I have seen that when one battery in a pack starts going bad the OBC signals the charger to start OVER CHARGING AT HIGHER RATES than normal, and run at a low rate ( less than 5 amps ) for a much longer period than normal? This must be the OBC trying to balance an increasingly bad battery?
Sorry I am NOT a learned person so my terminology and spelling are not the best, so please excuse?
Hi Old MEC

See my answer to Wpns as much applies to your case too in regard to putting non-stock batteries into a CC.

As far as what happens in general when a individual batteries go bad, that is not the subject of this thread and is probably answered elsewhere or the subject of another thread. I can only make an educated guess on what the OBC will see and may do about it.

First, note that the individual batteries are NOT monitored by the OBC - which controls the charger. The OBC can only sense what is happening to the pack, run some rudimentary "tests" and continually measure the pack voltage it expects for the current it is making the charger deliver vs those parameters for a pack of normal batteries.

The OBC tests seem to involve measuring the pack voltage during:

1. The 1-2 second shutoff of the charger about 10 seconds after start of charge.

2. The way that the pack voltage responds to the continuous current the OBC asks the charger to deliver.

3. The few seconds shut off of the charger at exactly 1 and 2 hours into the charge.

4. The occasional 5 minute shutoff (followed by resumption) of the charge by the OBC each hour near the end of the equalization phase. I have documented this behavior several times in detail, but not shown the graphs.

So the OBC will try and charge the pack as if the batteries are normal, routinely does tests (1-3 above) on the pack during charge and may do an extra test (4) during the equalization phase. Perhaps test (4) is to adjust for abnormal batteries or is part of retraining when a new OBC - Pack marriage takes place, or... I have seen it on about 10% of my plots.

I suppose the OBC may extend the equalization phase or cause it to execute more frequently if it "thinks" that there is an abnormal battery. I can not say much about this, as fortunately, I do not have or want an abnormal battery.

The OBC can not do anything directly to individual batteries (much less cells) - only to to the pack as a whole.

The OBC would be much better at sensing an abnormal battery, than fixing it.

And in MHO, your terminology and spelling are just fine! Thanks for your contributions.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:58 AM   #60
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Default Re: How does 48V 2001 Club Cart OBC function?

Hi Dr. Bob,

[Note, two separate carts with inconsistent charging problems]

I ran through the diagnostics tests on one of my carts, and it looks like it's possible that when you run it all the way down it takes so long to charge back up that the 16-hour timeout stops it a couple of hours before end of charge. Since I couldn't find anything wrong I put it back on charge and it finished up OK a couple of hours later.

FWIW I read 59.2V on the pack during charging (in the equalizing phase at about 5A) with a maximum difference between batteries of 0.17V (T-875 8V batteries). SG was within .022 across the pack, and everything seems OK. I'll confirm OCV this morning and put it back in service.

The other cart with the "wrong" computer will have to have the same diagnostics and such, but I'll put my Watts Up Pro on it so I can confirm the charge power profile.

My official Club Car dealer tells me the correct replacement for a 101909902 OBC is AM1229201 with a price of $175, so if I can't get it to come back to life with a few normal cycles I'll probably swap out the OBC and see if I can't return the other one for some kind of credit.

Thanks for your help!
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