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Unread 02-24-2013, 12:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

As I said in another thread you started, you are gunna be in trouble with the wife cuz you wasted money thinking you would get noticeable gains with a controller. You will waste more money thinking reprogramming will help because the cable is not cheap and the gain in performance will be negligible. What you need is a new motor, and that is where your controller upgrade pays off. If you have a jerky start now, you can program the controller to offset the problem but ultimately it is the mcor and you will either clean the terminals or replace it.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 09:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

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Originally Posted by Speedchaser View Post
As I said in another thread you started, you are gunna be in trouble with the wife cuz you wasted money thinking you would get noticeable gains with a controller. You will waste more money thinking reprogramming will help because the cable is not cheap and the gain in performance will be negligible. What you need is a new motor, and that is where your controller upgrade pays off. If you have a jerky start now, you can program the controller to offset the problem but ultimately it is the mcor and you will either clean the terminals or replace it.
I firmly disagree with most of this response. A controller WILL give you noticeable gains in TORQUE. Higher voltage WILL give you more speed. Many aftermarket motors (depending on design) will give you an increase in torque and speed, but that ability is ALWAYS LIMITED BY THE CONTROLLER. If the controller will not allow higher amperage or higher voltage then you might have a minor change with a different motor but the controller limitations will still be the same.

If I were you I would go back over everything and make sure it is correct. I can tell you when I put my controller in the difference in dead stop torque was night and day. You would have to be a corpse not to notice the difference. It will not bring the front tires off the ground, but it does raise the front suspension when you floor it from a dead stop. It won't throw a "rooster tail" but it will spin the tires momentarily from a dead stop in loose material. I don't think you necessarily "went wrong" with the controller, but at least now if you still want to go to a motor upgrade the rest of your system has the ability to handle the additional load. Make sure you have changed your cables to 2g or 4g as well before you do any motor upgrade if you have not done it yet.

As for engine braking, I have a series cart so I am not familiar with the braking feature. But, depending on your controller there should be a feature in the software that allows you to reduce or turn it off. Look around for it.

The cable is very cheap no matter where you get it. It doesn't matter if you use a standard USB to printer cable or a Serial cable... both are VERY COMMON computer cables that can be found nearly ANYWHERE.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 09:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

Thanks guys for your replies! My cart does lift the suspension in the front briefly once the throttle actually reacts. That's usually at least 1/2 way depressed to floorboard. Then it jumps the front end up with a big lurch. So ya, maybe I've got that so called "torque" gain. But on hills, nothing... 12mph. On straight take offs and full speed take off... quick momentary lurch followed by topping out within a few seconds. It just feels like there is either no go or floored and floored feels like the old controller did. I'm hoping that ScottyB has it detuned to 50% power or something. That's what it feels like. 22mph alone isn't terrible, but it's no gain over stock either. I think replacing the mcor will be a good thing to help but I need to check the settings in this thing I think and see what it's set at.

As I was reading on the Alltrax website about reprogramming, I noticed it says to plug a 15-20 volt wall wort to the controller, etc. Is everyone taking their entire system apart and tuning this way or is it possible to connect the cable while the controller is still on the cart, hooked up?

The website mentioned 5-6 and 9-10 pins +positive. It looked like some kind of pigtail was being used to connect to all of thiese pins to power up the controller on a table. Is that what I'm going to have to do to get this thing powered up to tune? Can't I just plug that printer cable into the Alltrax while it's on the cart and access the programming? That seems much more simple than tearing the whole thing apart again and trying to jumper 4 pins. Ugh..
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Unread 02-24-2013, 10:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

Sorry urban, but we will just have to disagree, and thats ok, except in my opinion you are giving misleading and inaccurate information. First, a controller does not increase voltage only amperage so it really will not effect speed, only torque, at least with the stock motor. However in the OP's situation, he possibly got a boost in speed because of his larger tires whereby the increased torque allowed his motor to more easily turn the wheels. I think we can agree that a higher amp controller is recommmended when running larger than stock wheels to get the extra torque.

Another thing, you mentioned voltage gives more speed, and that I agree with, but what does that have to do with a controller? A controller will not increase voltage. A controller with larger amp capability as well as larger cables will allow more current to flow which reduces heat and makes sure the motor is not starved.

In a real world example: we had two identical 2000 DS series carts, on one we just put in a motor, everything else stock, and it went 25 mph. The other we put in the same motor, 4 guage cables, and a 400 amp controller and guess what, 25 MPH. The only difference was the cart with the new controller had better hill climbing capability.

As far as the cable and programming, I was joking a little because he said his wife was already mad and so as not to make the situation worse, do not expect any real performance gains by programming. You can turn off braking, you can smooth out your takeoffs, you can install a new map to make sure you are getting 100% throttle (which in my case had no effect on top speed), but in the end speed will not be increased by just programming.

One last thing and I am sure I will get disagreement here. I was running my high speed motor with 500 amp controller and 400 amp solenoid in my 2008 Precedent and ran fine with stock cables. Recently upgraded all cables to 2 guage and absolutely no performance difference, except I sleep better knowing I should not be getting heat building up in the bat cables. I think cables are a good safety measure but in most golf cart applications (meaning the cart is used for golf only) that they are not absolutely necessary and will not yield noticeable performance gains.

OK, I got my my bullet proof vest on so blast away, lol.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

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Originally Posted by 7CLUB View Post
Thanks guys for your replies! My cart does lift the suspension in the front briefly once the throttle actually reacts. That's usually at least 1/2 way depressed to floorboard. Then it jumps the front end up with a big lurch. So ya, maybe I've got that so called "torque" gain. But on hills, nothing... 12mph. On straight take offs and full speed take off... quick momentary lurch followed by topping out within a few seconds. It just feels like there is either no go or floored and floored feels like the old controller did. I'm hoping that ScottyB has it detuned to 50% power or something. That's what it feels like. 22mph alone isn't terrible, but it's no gain over stock either. I think replacing the mcor will be a good thing to help but I need to check the settings in this thing I think and see what it's set at.

As I was reading on the Alltrax website about reprogramming, I noticed it says to plug a 15-20 volt wall wort to the controller, etc. Is everyone taking their entire system apart and tuning this way or is it possible to connect the cable while the controller is still on the cart, hooked up?

The website mentioned 5-6 and 9-10 pins +positive. It looked like some kind of pigtail was being used to connect to all of thiese pins to power up the controller on a table. Is that what I'm going to have to do to get this thing powered up to tune? Can't I just plug that printer cable into the Alltrax while it's on the cart and access the programming? That seems much more simple than tearing the whole thing apart again and trying to jumper 4 pins. Ugh..
Leave the controller in the cart when programming, just plug the 9 pin serial to usb cable in and then to the computer then turn key on. You will need the software that you can download from the alltrax site.

I would be surprised if the controller is not set at 100% but maybe yours isn't, let us know what you find on there.

Also I know cables can be had cheaper but I was willing to pay more to get it the same day, at radio shack. The cable was the same price at Office Depot. I have also read people having problems with inferior cheaper cables.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 10:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

I was running my high speed motor with 500 amp controller and 400 amp solenoid in my 2008 Precedent and ran fine with stock cables. Recently upgraded all cables to 2 guage and absolutely no performance difference,

Speed,
I agree with your last post but you shouldn't give people reasons to skimp on HD wires. Your particular motor was fine with stock wires, because it didn't pull enough amps from your controller to melt them. Most "high speed" motors just can't pull that kind of draw. But some can and would melt OEM cables. Just about every engineer will tell you to use at least 2 AWG wires with a 500 amp controller. Many people still use 4 AWG, but 2AWG is clearly the best option.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 11:13 AM   #17
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

I agree Steve. I think it is wise to upgrade cables for safety reasons and did my cart for that very reason. The stock battery cables do get hot with high amp applications even just golfing. If you use your cart for cruising or hunting I would absolutely recommend heavy duty cables.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 03:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

Speedchaser, SteveC,

You guys are awesome! Just your bantering back and forth gives so much insight to people like me who aren't pro's at this but mutally love carting. Thank you for being "good guys"!

Your "real world" comment, Speed, was super useful in helping me understand the situation. ScottyB likes to use the "water flowing through a valve" analogy which I think is quite good as well. I thought buying the new controller would allow more amperage to flow to the motor resulting in a modest speed increase AND torque increase. Torque increases are kind of difficult to comprehend for general carting until you get in specific scenarios that call for more torque. Then, I think, the driver can appreciate the new torque. Speed, on the otherhand is easy to comprehend from the start.

Thanks for the response on programming. I've got to dig in a few boxes and see if I can find an old printer cable. I haven't had a desktop setup for a few years now. Everything is wireless in our home so I'm not sure I still have one around. If not, I'll have to go get one.

I will be taking the mcor out and cleaning and checking things in a few minutes. I'm hoping I find a fixable issue that helps. I'll get back to the forum later and let you know what I find. And If i can find a cable, I'll check that out too.

Thanks
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Unread 02-24-2013, 06:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedchaser View Post
Sorry urban, but we will just have to disagree, and thats ok, except in my opinion you are giving misleading and inaccurate information. First, a controller does not increase voltage only amperage so it really will not effect speed, only torque, at least with the stock motor. However in the OP's situation, he possibly got a boost in speed because of his larger tires whereby the increased torque allowed his motor to more easily turn the wheels. I think we can agree that a higher amp controller is recommmended when running larger than stock wheels to get the extra torque.
This is correct, the controller does not increase the voltage, the cart owner does via battery selection. However, the controller has to have the ability to handle additional voltage to even make the extra voltage useful on the cart. It doesn't matter how much extra voltage you add, if your controller is rated for 36v max, that's the limit.

Another thing, you mentioned voltage gives more speed, and that I agree with, but what does that have to do with a controller? A controller will not increase voltage. A controller with larger amp capability as well as larger cables will allow more current to flow which reduces heat and makes sure the motor is not starved.I also agree with this statement. See the above reasoning for relation to the controller.

In a real world example: we had two identical 2000 DS series carts, on one we just put in a motor, everything else stock, and it went 25 mph. The other we put in the same motor, 4 guage cables, and a 400 amp controller and guess what, 25 MPH. The only difference was the cart with the new controller had better hill climbing capability. I agree with this statement, but again, refer to the first line of reasoning on why a controller with the ability to handle more voltage is an important part of the equation.

As far as the cable and programming, I was joking a little because he said his wife was already mad and so as not to make the situation worse, do not expect any real performance gains by programming. You can turn off braking, you can smooth out your takeoffs, you can install a new map to make sure you are getting 100% throttle (which in my case had no effect on top speed), but in the end speed will not be increased by just programming. Again.. agreed.

One last thing and I am sure I will get disagreement here. I was running my high speed motor with 500 amp controller and 400 amp solenoid in my 2008 Precedent and ran fine with stock cables. Recently upgraded all cables to 2 guage and absolutely no performance difference, except I sleep better knowing I should not be getting heat building up in the bat cables. I think cables are a good safety measure but in most golf cart applications (meaning the cart is used for golf only) that they are not absolutely necessary and will not yield noticeable performance gains.
What you choose to do with your cart is totally up to you. Heat build up on any electrical component is a very bad thing for the lifespan of that component. If the electrical code says that is the gauge wire necessary for the amperage and voltage, who are we to make the executive decision that we know more about the cables' ability to handle electrical current efficiently? Those standards are set into place for a reason. Avoid them (or not) at your own risk, but I know that I applied the correct gauge cables plus 2 gauges larger (2g cables) just to be on the safe side. Maybe your cart has not been in a situation where the 2g cables have had the opportunity to be faced with a "full load" for that cable size. That's a good thing. You never want to push the cables to their full ability, that leads to heat. I like to think of most maximums like a breaker, the 80% (or less) max rule unless otherwise stated.

OK, I got my my bullet proof vest on so blast away, lol.
I've got a level 3 vest myself, let's take 20 paces and fire at will. Kidding. Not responding to this to get into a pissing match with anyone, but I did not see anywhere that stated my opinions were incorrect given my replies. I'm not always right, but I don't think I'm wrong this time. I'm very open minded, so if I'm wrong prove it to me and I will accept being wrong and declare you the victor of said conversation.
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Unread 02-24-2013, 06:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: New Controller... Not impressed?

Sorry Urban, I cannot disagree with any of the new comments so I am removing my vest.
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