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Old 02-20-2016, 11:08 AM   #1
duder1982
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Default Batteries and charger

Hello folks, its that time of the year again when I need to get my cart up and running. Not that there has been any real issues. But my cart all ways seemed to be touchy. One thing I have all ways noticed is that it never really had full charge.

I just want to give a little back ground. I have been a mechanic for some time, one of the things I work on a daily basis is electric scissor lifts. Though not exactly the same as a golf cart, but similar. In other words I feel confident doing work to these things, along with some understanding how things work. My cart is a TXT model I believe and 03' but will have to double check. For upgrades (done by the previous owner) It has some lift with 22" tires, the red performance plug on the motor controller, 4 gauge wire.

Last year I thought I had some serious issues, however it seemed to be the an adjustment issue with the its along with a not so full charge. With those things in order everything seemed to work fine.

This year I was thinking of adding a few things, such a charge meter to show what my battery charge is, a 36 volt to 12 volt reducer, maybe a stereo. I removed my batteries from my cart as I keep my cart outside for the winter. Brought them in to keep them warm and from freezing. As I have seen that happen with scissor lifts on job sites in extreme cold, especially if you don't keep them charged.

So whats my question? I put a 6 volt trickle charger on one last night. This morning I noticed the charger amperage was still high 5 or 6 amps(shouldn't it read 0 if the battery was fully charged?). I would have thought it would have been fully charged by now. When I put my volt meter on it, it was reading over 8 volts. I was trying to think if the batteries at work (4-6 volt batteries in series to make 24) had ever been over 6.5 volts when fully charged. I got to thinking that maybe someone installed 8 volt batteries to make this a 48 volt system. I will try to ask the original owner if he had done that thinking ti would make it a 48 system. If he did, what would be a good recommendation?

From what I have gathered the motor may be able to handle it, but the motor controller and solenoid wouldn't. I guess this time I would need to decide to drop cash on all new batteries or go ahead and upgrade. If I upgrade to a 48 volt system, I would also need a 48 volt charger. Sounds like it could get expensive.

Let me know what you all think. If you need more info let me know.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:12 AM   #2
gornoman
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Default Re: Batteries and charger

I can help on one thing right away. If batteries have three fill holes on top they are 6v. If they have four holes they are 8v.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:18 AM   #3
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I can help on one thing right away. If batteries have three fill holes on top they are 6v. If they have four holes they are 8v.
Makes since as they would have an extra cell. Ok, so that answers the question about needing to upgrade to 48 volts. But I still don't understand why they aren't full charged but reading 8 volts.

It may be normal. If so then I can go back to focusing on the other things. Unless of coarse after giving the batteries a full charge, the cart is still touchy. I do know from another thread i started when I first came here last year. That the thought of the the stress on the motor controller could be causing it to prematurely fail. Which in that case, the motor controller and solenoid will become priority. I mean whats the point of having 12 volt accessories if the cart don't run. Reminds me when I was 16 and my car didn't have a motor but it had a stereo, I would sit in it and jam tunes and pretend to drive.

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Old 02-20-2016, 12:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: Batteries and charger

I had one battery in my pack that had a high amp reading so I'm thinking that the plates may be shorted or something. When I tried to hook up a 6 volt charger to it the amps would go full scale and kick the charger off. I'm getting ready to buy all new batteries for it here next week.
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Old 02-20-2016, 01:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Batteries and charger

There are more red flags waving here than what was typically seen in the former Soviet Union during Victory Day Parades.

Running 22" tires with a stock PDS controller and batteries not being charged while in storage are the biggies. The rest are more along the misinformation lines.

With 22" tires, you loose 18% of the available torque, which in turn puts an 18% heavier load on the controller and solenoid. Granted, people do run oversized tires with stock controllers and solenoids, but many of them experience controller and solenoid failures at an inopportune time. It is best to upgrade the drive system when significantly larger tires are installed.

Deep-cycle batteries typically self-discharge at about 1% per day and the plate sulfation kicks into high gear at about 70% SoC, so batteries ought to be recharged at least every month. Otherwise, they completely discharge in about three months and might turn into boat anchors. Salvaging a battery that has sat in a completely discharged state is iffy at best.

As for batteries freezing, if the SoC is above 70% and the temperature is warmer than 40 below, the electrolyte won't freeze. If the battery is kept at 100% SoC (float charging), it won't freeze at 92 below. (See attached White Paper from Trajan Battery)

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No, the ammeter on the charge will not go to zero when the battery is fully charged. The definition of "fully charged" for lead-acid wet-cell deep-cycle battery is when the specific gravity of the electrolyte ceases to increase while a charging current is passing through it.

Some chargers will pump amps through a fully charged battery. Other chargers stop pumping amps through the battery before it becomes fully charged. And others shut off when the on-charge voltage reaches a predetermined voltage whether the battery is fully charged or not.

Modern battery chargers the use dV/dT (Change in Voltage over Change in Time) technology tend to fully charge batteries while the legacy ferroresonant transformer type do not.

In a nutshell, batteries that are left outside and kept charged are far more likely to survive a Nebraska winter than batteries brought inside and not charged.

FWIW: The lowest recorded temperature in the United States was -80°F in Prospect Creek, Alaska in 1971, so cart batteries on float charge (100% SoC) would have survived.

As for a 6V battery measuring 8V while on charge. That is higher than a typical golf cart charger will take them, but less than some can climb to using dV/dT technology. 2.8VPC (Volta per Cell) is about max, or 8.4V for a 3 cell (6V) battery.

The question is: What does voltage read about 12 hours after the charger has been removed from it. Should be about 1.22VPC for Trojan batteries and clones, which is 6.37V for a 6V battery.
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File Type: pdf WP_DeepCycleBatteryStorage_0512.pdf (459.5 KB, 0 views)
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:27 PM   #6
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I rechecked the battery in question, it was around 6.5. I will recheck this evening. As for leaving the batteries outside on a charge. It is miles away from me and i dont feel comfortable doing that as i dont have away to check them.

Upgrading the motor controller and solenoid are on my list of to do.

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Old 02-20-2016, 03:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Batteries and charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by duder1982 View Post
I rechecked the battery in question, it was around 6.5. I will recheck this evening.
When trouble shooting electric carts "around 6.5" is not enough info. We need two digits past the decimal. 6.50 is a big difference from 6.59.
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Old 02-20-2016, 03:54 PM   #8
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When trouble shooting electric carts "around 6.5" is not enough info. We need two digits past the decimal. 6.50 is a big difference from 6.59.
These things are that touchy? Scissor lifts can operate between 19 and 24 volts give or take. May not be optimal but i can get the motor controller to kick on with a 9 volt battery.

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Old 02-20-2016, 03:58 PM   #9
duder1982
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Originally Posted by duder1982 View Post
These things are that touchy? Scissor lifts can operate between 19 and 24 volts give or take. May not be optimal but i can get the motor controller to kick on with a 9 volt battery.

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I guess it makes since now that i think about. Scissor lift motors run a pump to push hydraulic fluid to drive. Of course that would be a Genie, still JLGs which are electric drive dont need 6.59 vs 6.50 to operate.

Not questioning your knowledge, just trying to understand.

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Old 02-20-2016, 05:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: Batteries and charger

Golf carts typically operate with the batteries between 100% SoC (State of Charge) and 50% SoC, which for a 36V battery pack is from 38.2V down to 36.3V or 6.37V down to 6.05V at the 6V battery level.

Resolving to 0.1V is usually sufficient at the battery pack level, resolving to 0.01V is need at the individual battery level and resolving to 0.001V is needed at the cell level, but most people cannot access the cell terminals, so a DVM that resolves to 0.01V below about 15V is all that is needed.

Attached is a Voltage vs SoC chart for Trojan brand batteries. Please note that a 0.06V change is a 10% change in SoC from 100% SoC down to 70% SoC, while 0.07V is a 10% change in SoC from 70% SoC down to 50% SoC.

For maximum battery cradle to grave lifespan, we try not to discharge the battery pack below 50% SoC and we try to keep the average SoC as high as possible by recharging after each use.

I'm not sure what make/model batteries are used in scissor lifts, but if they use Lead-Acid Wet-Cell Deep-Cycle batteries, 24.0V for a 24V pack of is only about 50% SoC and 19.0V is less than 10% SoC.

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There is nothing wrong with bringing the batteries in from the cold, just bring the charger also and charge them about once a month.
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File Type: jpg SoC vs Voltage - Trojan Battery.JPG (56.9 KB, 0 views)
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