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Unread 09-12-2018, 09:39 AM   #21
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

If the K2 is a date code, it probably means Nov-2012, so your batteries are nearly 6 years old, which is very good for cart batteries, especially ones that aren't being maintained properly. They ought to be recharged after each use and at least once a month when cart isn't being used.

Comparing batteries by their Run-Time is a good way to do it, but no matter what is used for comparison, the same yardstick has to be used. You mentioned minutes several batteries will run at 75A and then tossed in the AGM with the Run-Time minutes at 25A, so you get an apples to oranges comparison.

The T-105 that runs for 115 minutes with a 75A discharge rate, will run 447 minutes with a 25A discharge rate.
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Unread 09-12-2018, 01:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
The T-105 that runs for 115 minutes with a 75A discharge rate, will run 447 minutes with a 25A discharge rate.
Which tells you the AH ratings at 2 a 8 hours.

[115 minutes / 60 minutes] x 75 amps = 143 AH
[447 minutes / 60minutes] x 25 amps = 186 AH

In reality you never want to discharge a battery no more than 50%, and th e75 amp run time is a good number to use. Meaning your 225 AH Trojan Battery only has 72 AH usable capacity, or 1 hour drive time.
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Unread 09-12-2018, 01:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

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Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post

However, the run-time minutes at a 75A discharge rate is slightly better for the S-290 (117A @ 75A) than the US 2200 XC (115 min @ 75A).

The pricing for the Rolls S-290 I find on-line is competitive at about $150 each with no core exchange, but shipping would most likely be required,
THX Johnny, but I am no fan of US Battery, would not own them unless given to me. There is one spec you might be over looking that tells the tale, weight. More lead is a longer lived battery.

Rolls S-290 = 70 pounds
Trojan T-105 = 62 pounds
US Battery XC200 XC2 = a wimpy 56 pounds.

FWIW Trojan makes a better version of the T-105 not many know about. It use to be called the T-105RE, but marketers changed the model number to SPRE-06-225. It weighs in at 5 pounds more lead (67 pounds) than the T-105, and carries a better 24/60 month warranty. Well worth the extra $10 unit cost. You get what you pay for. Take note on the Battery Term Post. It is a Flag Terminal which is superior to the ELPT post on the T-105.
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Unread 09-12-2018, 03:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

So... If I am reading all this technical jargon correctly, If I buy "cheap" batteries with a 6v 235ah rating for $80 each, have a 1 year warranty, and use heavily every weekend from April to October. I would be an idiot.
BUT!!!
Someone mentioned that the state of charge plays in.. So, IF my cart sits on charger whenever not being used and SOC almost never gets below 75% Then there is a slight possibility I am brilliant, and the rest is similar to a Ford Chevy argument.

All of us can find specs, and there are 2 VERY spec accurate people on this thread(both of them I listen to usually), But the AH/Watt/$ argument is invalid from my own research because battery maintenance, and SOC play a larger part in a Lead batteries life.

If you charge once, use cart to 20%, then charge..... buy the long warranty

If you use your cart like me, then none of the stats and specs for analyzing cost per w/h will work. I am lazy, and with all the information in this post, (which I love being an engineer), I have now decided I made the correct choice for me. And based on the comments I see, I would like to sat I will make sure to come back in 4 years and say my batteries are awesome still, or dead... but by then I will forget.

Good luck in your choice. I looked at the SOC charts when making my decision also, and the number of charges from each % the batteries can take. I am pretty sure My Oreilly Batteries are USBatteries. Which my Previous US Batteries lasted 9 years.
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Unread 09-12-2018, 04:21 PM   #25
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

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Originally Posted by not-so-ezgo View Post
If you use your cart like me, then none of the stats and specs for analyzing cost per w/h will work. I am lazy, and with all the information in this post, (which I love being an engineer), I have now decided I made the correct choice for me.
I am sure you did make the right choice based on what you knew or maybe some things you might be over simplifying.

I am an Train Driver myself, a licensed PE and have worked in Telecom and Electric Utilities going on 40 years this October. I am not in the battery industry and have nothing vested or any interest in batteries or golf carts. However I do extensive work with batteries in telecom and electrical generation. Cannot count the number of 48 VDC 20,000 to 60,000 AH battery plants I have installed over the decades. Enough at one time while at MCI Worldcom kept C&D, Exide, And Lucent battery plants operating 24 hours a day for 3 years and landed me on IEEE Battery Standards committee.

Anyway if you are lazy as you describe yourself, then you made the right choice. You bought a two year battery. I also do a lot of off-grid solar work on the side, and new customers get cheap batteries first time around because I know they will destroy their first set from neglect. Once they learned their lesson, then we replace and upgrade with better batteries once they know how to use a Hydrometer, takes voltages, keep a log, and keep the batteries clean and cool.

So from one train driver to another, batteries are not created equal. If you were to take the $80 battery from O'Rileys, or a $100 Trojan T-105, and treated them equally with the same neglect, the Trojans are going to hold up twice as long. They are made better with higher quality materials, more lead in them, and made to be beat up in a golf cart and neglected. Exactly what manufactures want you to do to bring you back sooner and get in your pockets more often.
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Unread 09-12-2018, 06:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunking View Post
Which tells you the AH ratings at 2 a 8 hours.

[115 minutes / 60 minutes] x 75 amps = 143 AH
[447 minutes / 60minutes] x 25 amps = 186 AH

In reality you never want to discharge a battery no more than 50%, and th e75 amp run time is a good number to use. Meaning your 225 AH Trojan Battery only has 72 AH usable capacity, or 1 hour drive time.
Applying the same yardstick to the Rolls S-290 we get:

[117 minutes / 60 minutes] x 75 amps = 146 AH
[445 minutes / 60minutes] x 25 amps = 185 AH
Limiting it to 50%, we get a usable capacity of 73AH or about 1 hour drive time.

On the other hand when that same yardstick is applied to US Battery's US 2200 XC, we get:

[122 minutes / 60 minutes] x 75 amps = 152 AH
[474 minutes / 60minutes] x 25 amps = 198 AH
Limiting that to 50% we get a usable capacity of 76 AH, or about 1 Hr drive time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunking View Post
THX Johnny, but I am no fan of US Battery, would not own them unless given to me. There is one spec you might be over looking that tells the tale, weight. More lead is a longer lived battery.

Rolls S-290 = 70 pounds
Trojan T-105 = 62 pounds
US Battery XC200 XC2 = a wimpy 56 pounds.

FWIW Trojan makes a better version of the T-105 not many know about. It use to be called the T-105RE, but marketers changed the model number to SPRE-06-225. It weighs in at 5 pounds more lead (67 pounds) than the T-105, and carries a better 24/60 month warranty. Well worth the extra $10 unit cost. You get what you pay for. Take note on the Battery Term Post. It is a Flag Terminal which is superior to the ELPT post on the T-105.
I'm not a big fan of US Battery cart batteries either, but they have always answered the questions I've asked and do have some fairly decent technical information on their website.

I was using the US 2200 XC for comparison, which weighs 62 pounds. Same as the T-105.

I like the bolt through terminals a lot better than the stud type, that is what I have on my Exide batteries. Not quite the same as the ones on the solar T-105, more like a automotive post with two flattened side and a horizontal hole through the flats. With charge cables, Voltage Reducer cables and Dash mounted DVM wires, the main + and - terminals get crowded with stud terminals, with the bolt through type, you can put the high current cables on one side and the less amp stuff on the other side. Same goes for dual terminal types.

-------------
Bottom line is that I've arrived at the conclusion the best way to choose which batteries to buy is by the color of the case. If SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) likes it, it's bound to be the wisest choice.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 10:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Applying the same yardstick to the Rolls S-290 we get:
Well there is one yard stick US Battery will not show you and that is internal resistance, and that is where ROLLS really shine, it is half the resistance of US Battery. For the layman that means they deliver more current at higher voltages. In other words accelerate quicker with higher top end speeds.

As for the capacity of US battery, they cheat a bit, and the general public is clueless about what US Battery is doing. Even when I point it out will not likely fully understand. US Battery runs the Specific Gravity higher than Trojan and Rolls. That is why they can claim 220 AH capacity from only 52 pounds of lead vs 70 pounds for Rolls. Now the trade off is two fold running higher Specific Gravitates.

1. Higher Specific Gravity, (stronger acid) deteriorates and corrodes the internal parts like the plates and grids at an accelerated rate.
2. That is compounded by less material for the acid to eat, thus much faster aging and loss of capacity.

That is the reason US Battery and others can only offer a 1 year prorated warranty.

Considering US Battery, Trojan, and Rolls basically cost the same, I will take superior performance, longevity, and a 7 year warranty every time.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 11:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

The Rolls S-290 battery cannot possibly have 70 pounds of lead in it, since it only weighs 69.5 pounds. Setting the rounding up aside, it has to contain somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 quarts of electrolyte in addition to the lead, and 7 qts of about 25% (or so) by weight sulfuric acid weighs about 18 pounds, so the weight of the lead is no more than about 52 pounds.

On the other hand, the US 2200 XC has a wet weight of 61.73 pounds, consisting of 44.00 pounds of lead and 17.15 pounds of electrolyte (27.8% by weight sulfuric acid). (Values provided by USB)

I suspect the Rolls has lower internal resistance then Trojan or USB due to a larger surface area of the plate/electrolyte interface. IE: More plates per cell or something like that.

Looking at the chart in the S-290 spec sheet, it looks like 100% SoC for the Rolls is 2.100VPC while Trojan is 2.122VPC and USB is 2.137VPC, which reflects the differences in the SG of their electrolytes, USB being the strongest acid concentration.

More lead and a milder acid concentration will give the Rolls a longer lifespan.

------------
I'll very likely up my battery pack from 42V to 48V next time I replace the batteries and if Rolls has any 8V offerings, they'll most definitely be on my list of contenders.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 01:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunking View Post
I am sure you did make the right choice based on what you knew or maybe some things you might be over simplifying.

I am an Train Driver myself, a licensed PE and have worked in Telecom and Electric Utilities going on 40 years this October. I am not in the battery industry and have nothing vested or any interest in batteries or golf carts. However I do extensive work with batteries in telecom and electrical generation. Cannot count the number of 48 VDC 20,000 to 60,000 AH battery plants I have installed over the decades. Enough at one time while at MCI Worldcom kept C&D, Exide, And Lucent battery plants operating 24 hours a day for 3 years and landed me on IEEE Battery Standards committee.

Anyway if you are lazy as you describe yourself, then you made the right choice. You bought a two year battery. I also do a lot of off-grid solar work on the side, and new customers get cheap batteries first time around because I know they will destroy their first set from neglect. Once they learned their lesson, then we replace and upgrade with better batteries once they know how to use a Hydrometer, takes voltages, keep a log, and keep the batteries clean and cool.

So from one train driver to another, batteries are not created equal. If you were to take the $80 battery from O'Rileys, or a $100 Trojan T-105, and treated them equally with the same neglect, the Trojans are going to hold up twice as long. They are made better with higher quality materials, more lead in them, and made to be beat up in a golf cart and neglected. Exactly what manufactures want you to do to bring you back sooner and get in your pockets more often.
I actually love this answer. Because it somehow proves my point. This assumes the same neglect of the batteries. My question is now with proper care of both types, is the Trojan still offering 2 times the life?

I will also agree I am over simplifying, but you say I will get 2 years from these, which means if my lack of neglect gets me 4.... then ;)

I understand what you are saying completely, and don't disagree. I just was trying to oversimplify the technical version of buy the cheaper ones, treat them right, and they will pay off also.

I also wasn't disputing your knowledge, actually just the opposite. Hopefully you can agree that too much detail can frustrate many, and online I tend to simplify too far, and that can cause the same issue. :(

I appreciate the info on your off grid setups, I may tap you in my real world life for a couple clients. And Now I need to consider Rolls if I can get them around here also. Thank you!
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Unread 09-13-2018, 10:17 PM   #30
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
The Rolls S-290 battery cannot possibly have 70 pounds of lead in it, since it only weighs 69.5 pounds.
Splitting hairs there. I rounded off total weight. Makes no difference, the numbers talk.

US Battery XC-2000 = 52 pounds
Trojan T-105 = 62 pounds
Rolls S290 69.5 pounds.

Happy Now? Bottom Line Rolls has a heck of a lot more lead in it and will last a heck of a lot longer. That is why US Battery can only give a 1 year pro-rated warranty, and Rolls has 36 month free replacement, and month 37 to 84 months is pro-rated.

If you do not like warranty, performance, or $/AH try $/Lb and since all three cost roughly the same, Rolls wins again, you get more lead.
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