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Unread 02-10-2019, 01:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

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Originally Posted by yurtle View Post
I have a question. It may not be quantifiable unless someone has done a real comparison.

1. Do batteries sulphate more quickly with lower SOC than with higher SOC? Assuming same quality batteries.

2. The charts of SOC vs. years of use is based on something, though the studies backing them up are likely proprietary.

3. Reason I'm asking is, would someone with a lower Amp-Hr battery who goes down to 50% SOC, but then immediately recharges be better, worse, or the same (or unquantifiable) as someone with a higher Amp-Hr battery that only goes down to 70% SOC, but waits several hours before charging?

4. I guess what I'm asking is which is worse, short term low SOC, or longer term higher SOC?

5. Ignoring cost, we'd all have the highest Amp-Hr battery, which would keep a higher SOC than a lower Amp-Hr battery, but as you pointed out, the life cycle cost tips the choice away from the highest Amp-Hr, best quality.

6. Just wondering if driving habits make enough of a difference to even notice?
1. The lower the SoC the more lead sulfate available to crystallize, so I suspect the more of it does and the battery ages faster.

2. I don't know if the Average SoC vs Cycles Available data from the four manufacturer's I have data from is from empirical testing or computer modeling or other means, but years off lifespan isn't something stated in the data published by those manufacturers. We assume a "cycle" is a discharge to some level followed by a recharge and it is done once per day, so 365.25 cycles = 1 year. I've heard that playing a round of golf followed by recharging the battery is equal to one cycle while playing two rounds before recharging is equal to three cycles. Playing two rounds increases both DoD and length of time at a partially discharged state, so that theory may have merit.

3. The SoC vs Cycle charts are based on average SOC, so the question becomes how many hours have to elapse before the average SoC of higher AH battery that is only discharged to 70% SoC becomes equal to or lower than the lower AH battery discharged to 50% and charged immediately. If hours of sitting were defined, a little number crunching can answer the question.

4. Both are bad. If you have short term low SoC, the batteries are undersized. If you have long term high SoC, you are remiss in your battery care.

5. Only if the higher AH batteries are disproportionately more expensive.

6. Depending on driving style my cart will use anywhere from 3.6AH/Mi up to 5.3AH/Mi. That is nearly a 50% difference in "gas mileage" so my SoC drops considerably over the same distance traveled depending on how heavy my foot is.
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Unread 02-10-2019, 03:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

JohnnieB, I was reading a few facts about my T1275 trojans on the net. I saw some charging numbers I'm not sure about.
1. Bulk 59.28, is that the max volt number my charger is supose to reach? It doesn't, 57.3 is about max for my DPI charger.
2. Float 54.0, I assume thats the volts my charger should be holding while floating. Its not, while floating my charger is 53.1.
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Unread 02-10-2019, 05:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

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JohnnieB, I was reading a few facts about my T1275 trojans on the net. I saw some charging numbers I'm not sure about.
1. Bulk 59.28, is that the max volt number my charger is supose to reach? It doesn't, 57.3 is about max for my DPI charger.
2. Float 54.0, I assume thats the volts my charger should be holding while floating. Its not, while floating my charger is 53.1.
1. Those are the voltages a charger with user settable voltages are supposed to be set at, but a DPI has user selectable charge profiles for different brand batteries, so the voltages and amps in the various charging stages in the different profiles have already been preset at the DPI factory. Also, the DPI doesn't work the same way as the chargers Trojan is referring to in those tables.

The Bulk stage with the DPI is constant current, so the pack voltage starts at whatever it is when the charge cycle starts and climbs to about 56.4V where it advances to the Absorption stage where it switches to a constant voltage and stays at about 56.4V as the amps decrease. I'm not sure exactly what amp flow rate triggers the change to the Finish stage, but the amps are held at whatever that rate as the voltage increases. When the voltage ceases to climb (dV/dT - change in Voltage over change in Time), the DPI terminates the regular charge cycle and switches to float charging.

2. Float charge is a constant voltage held above the AT-Rest voltage for 100% SoC and below the gassing voltage. So it should be someplace between 50.9V and 56.6V. The info I got from DPI ages ago (when I was running 36V, so it was before 2013) says Mode-2 (Trojan) floats at 2.19VPC, so that would be 52.53 for a 48V pack, so 53.1V is a little higher than expected, but well within the float charging range.

The important thing is checking to be sure the DPI is fully charging your T1275 batteries. Either unplug the DPI from the cart and lt it sit for about 12 hours or take a quick trip of about a half mile and let sit for about an hour. The At-Rest voltage ought to be about 50.9V, but can vary above for newer batteries or below for older ones.
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Unread 02-10-2019, 06:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

JohnnieB, thanks for the explanation. I will check the at-rest charge next warm day.
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Unread 02-11-2019, 07:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

Johnie B am I correct or just reading chart wrong that U S batteries are better or equal to Trojans?
Thanks
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Unread 02-12-2019, 11:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

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Johnie B am I correct or just reading chart wrong that U S batteries are better or equal to Trojans?
Thanks
First and foremost, the data the Cycles vs SoC chart is based on was obtained from the respective battery manufacturers, so I'm sure it has been thoroughly optimized by the respective manufacturers to shine a favorable light on themselves. As such, I believe it may be more in the advertising arena than scientific.

Secondly, I don't know how the numbers were arrived at. Was actual testing done or are the numbers a product of computer modeling or some other method?

Third, did all four manufacturers do the same thing to get their numbers?

Fourth, "better" is an open ended term.

With that said, the chart indicates US Battery has more cycles vs Soc at 70% SoC and above while Trojan has more at 60% SoC and below. So US Battery may be "better" for cart owners that only make short trips while Trojan may be "better" for those making long trips.

However, to answer your question, you're not reading the chart wrong, you're just not reading all of the chart.
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Unread 02-12-2019, 12:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

That's where Consumer Reports is needed, to do a side by side test. Unfortunately said test would take 5 - 10 years, and could never truly recreate all scenarios. Likely need to do at least three different scenarios.
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Unread 02-12-2019, 06:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

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That's where Consumer Reports is needed, to do a side by side test. Unfortunately said test would take 5 - 10 years, and could never truly recreate all scenarios. Likely need to do at least three different scenarios.
The internal resistance of the cells increase as they age (sulfate) and it is possible to do several discharge/recharge cycles per day, so with proper test equipment, environmental controls and automation, you might shrink the worst case test set down to a few months. On the other hand, you'd need a lot of batteries and they ain't cheap.
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Unread 02-14-2019, 09:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Best bang for the buck tool for battery buying.

Has anyone here used Interstate brand golf cart batteries?
There is a motorsports dealer near me who sells a set of 6 6v batteries for $444. Seems like a good deal.
I recently purchased a set of 6 Exide batteries at the local Rural King for $475.

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