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Unread 04-21-2019, 04:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Easy one first.

Charger Plug:
Electrically, retaining the original "D" plug isn't an issue. However, there is the possibility of mixing 36V and 48V chargers and battery packs, but that's only a problem if somebody tries to use your 48V charger to charge their 36V battery pack. If that situation exists, marking the D-plug that it is 48V in a highly visible way ought to solve that issue.

Motor:
The DC traction motors used in golf carts will operate over a wide range of voltages. The difference between a 36V and a 48V motor is the thickness and length of the wires used in the windings. It takes more amps at 36V to do the same work that is done at 48V, so the 36V motor is more robust since motor heating is the result of amp flow and increases exponentially as amp flow increases (I * R = W), so a 36V motor runs cooler at 48V than a 48V motor does at 36V. Fortunately, most of the aftermarket motors are designed to tolerate the heat load of operating at 36V and will likely run cooler at 48V than a motor specifically designed for 48V doing at the same workload.

Sounds like you will be running at low RPM most of the time, so motor heat will be something to compensate for. Suggest a 36V rated motor is the longest case length that will fit between differential and driver side shock.

Don't know if he ships to Canada, but EMP will design and build a motor specifically for your cart and how it is used.
http://empinc.biz/motors


Controller:
I like the Alltrax XCT because it is user programmable via a USB cable. From what I can tell, the Navitas is also user programmable, but the programming doesn't appear to be as user friendly, which may not be an issue for you.

If you decide to go with the Navitas and figure it out, I'll probable want to pick your brain some.
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Unread 04-22-2019, 12:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Easy one first.

Charger Plug:
Electrically, retaining the original "D" plug isn't an issue. However, there is the possibility of mixing 36V and 48V chargers and battery packs, but that's only a problem if somebody tries to use your 48V charger to charge their 36V battery pack. If that situation exists, marking the D-plug that it is 48V in a highly visible way ought to solve that issue.
There are only two TXTs in the park. Total of 3 EZGOs the other one being a 94' Marathon which has a totally different charger end. As well, the power in the park is not cheap so there isn't any sharing going on. :) There are only about 12 carts in total. The rest are Club Cars so the chances of mixing the charger isn't a huge issue. I'll make a custom plate with a spring flip cover with a warning.

I am eyeing a Lester Summit II but, am open to opinions on what charger to get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Motor:

The DC traction motors used in golf carts will operate over a wide range of voltages.
Even the "Electric Vehicle Power Systems Inc." motor in my cart? I can't read the PART NO (x2), SERIAL NO, or RATING. The thing is so old the numbers have worn off. All I can read is the manufacture name on the label. It does say "CLASS H" on it if that means anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
The difference between a 36V and a 48V motor is the thickness and length of the wires used in the windings. It takes more amps at 36V to do the same work that is done at 48V, so the 36V motor is more robust since motor heating is the result of amp flow and increases exponentially as amp flow increases (I * R = W), so a 36V motor runs cooler at 48V than a 48V motor does at 36V.
Ohm's law. Gotcah. Makes sense. I am guessing that a 48v would be more efficient than a 36v motor due to them using less amperage to do the same task?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Fortunately, most of the aftermarket motors are designed to tolerate the heat load of operating at 36V and will likely run cooler at 48V than a motor specifically designed for 48V doing at the same workload.
I am guessing that is why the stock 6ga wires on my cart are so awful. The 36v is pulling more amps and the wires can't handle it and overheating? Going uphill the motor will draw more amps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Sounds like you will be running at low RPM most of the time, so motor heat will be something to compensate for.
I have built a few custom liquid cooling systems for high-end personal computers. Wondering if anyone has ever built a liquid cooling system for golf carts now. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Suggest a 36V rated motor is the longest case length that will fit between differential and driver side shock.

Don't know if he ships to Canada, but EMP will design and build a motor specifically for your cart and how it is used.
http://empinc.biz/motors
Will drop them an email and see if they ship to Canada. Duties and taxes fall on me to pay so generally most custom shops will do it. I could also do the 6-hour drive and pick it up too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Controller:

I like the Alltrax XCT because it is user programmable via a USB cable.
The Navitas TSX3.0 is Bluetooth. I have seen a few posts where there are questions about the security of the Navitas Bluetooth comes up. I work in the software security industry... Military grade encryption and stuff like that. From my review of their install guides it appears they are just doing Security Level 1 (communication without security at all).

They should at minimum be doing "out of band" (OOB) pairing. The manual (or device) would have a sticker in it that gives you a one time password (OTP) to enter into the application when pairing. Hard as hell to hack if you use really strong codes. Its the best way to secure Bluetooth connections. The downfall is... You lose your key you can't connect. As well users need to be more sophisticated and enter a code. You would be surprised at how many people struggle with entering an OTP into a user interface.

This indeed is a design flaw if it is only Security Level 1. So, those who raise it are not tinfoil hat wearers. Most devices do this level of security because it is the easiest for users to connect to. But, on a controller like this they shouldn't do it. Last thing you need is someone pairing to your device and screwing with the config. If you are in a populated area with lots of controllers... It could be a real problem.

The Alltrax XCT using a USB is the most secure method. You have to have physical access to the device to change it.

Although it is not as dynamic and cool as what Bluetooth can give you in near-real-time. The Navitas dashboard app looks interesting. Seeing speed, temperature, voltage, error codes, etc... is nifty. I may forgo my concerns with Bluetooth security to have nifty tooling. I am lucky as few people in my small park have carts and I would easily find whoever is futzing with my controller with my Bluetooth scanner and shut them down. I do realize that 99.999% of users can't do this though. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
From what I can tell, the Navitas is also user programmable, but the programming doesn't appear to be as user-friendly, which may not be an issue for you.
I watched the recent video they posted in 2019 on how to configure the controller and it doesn't look too hard. I would redesign the whole UI but, it isn't awful from my perspective as a software guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
If you decide to go with the Navitas and figure it out, I'll probably want to pick your brain some.
I am still researching. Have some questions into Navitas about the wire harness for my 1206SX. The install guides only show the 1026MX install. But, they do have what appears to be the right wire harness for the 1026SX which can be found here. Their documentation for the SX series controllers is lacking.

The molex connector in the install guide for the 1206MX is a stacked 10 pin. (5 pins on top and 5 pins on bottom.) The 1206SX is ten pins in a row. The wire harness in the above link is 10 pins in a row. Just waiting for their tech guy tomorrow to confirm. The resolution in the PDF isn't great so I want to triple check with the techs before I purchase anything.

Parts numbers do match up with what they state for a DCS install though. Just lacks the "SX" label on the part number:

EZ-GO TXT (DCS) (Shunt 36V) 10-000811
​​​10-000685 – TSX 3.0 600AMP 36-48V Controller w/ Bluetooth
10-000686 – OTF1.0 Programmer (3.75m cable)
40-000540 – TSX Harness For EZ-GO TXT DCS 36V (Curtis 1206)

I will need the 10-000770 Optional DC Hardware Kit for E-Z-Go which has the mount kit for my run-tow switch. Not sure if all the parts in the install guide come with the kit. Another thing I need a confirmation from Navitas on.

I will be more than happy to share all the details of the install with the forum with pictures of the install. Of course, I will probably have a bunch of noobie questions about the existing wiring which hopefully you assist with. :)

Again, thank-you for your assistance JohnnieB!

Cheers,
Imapled
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Unread 04-22-2019, 03:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Quote:
Even the "Electric Vehicle Power Systems Inc." motor in my cart? I can't read the PART NO (x2), SERIAL NO, or RATING. The thing is so old the numbers have worn off. All I can read is the manufacture name on the label. It does say "CLASS H" on it if that means anything.
I've never heard of a 36V cart motor that won't run on 48V.
The Class H is the temperature rating of the insulation on the wires in the field and armature windings. Class H can operate up to 180C, but there is no way to measure actual wire temperature in most motors, so case temperature is use and it is de-rated down to 115C.
Quote:
Ohm's law. Gotcah. Makes sense. I am guessing that a 48v would be more efficient than a 36v motor due to them using less amperage to do the same task?
Efficiency (percentage of amps converted to torque vs percent converted to heat) is about the same, it is just that more total amps are needed at 36V.

Quote:
I am guessing that is why the stock 6ga wires on my cart are so awful. The 36v is pulling more amps and the wires can't handle it and overheating? Going uphill the motor will draw more amps?
Going uphill or carrying more weight or having taller tires all draw more amps. 6Ga cables are marginal for a a completely stock with driver only on level pavement.

---------------
The Alltrax also produces data logs, but you have to have a laptop (or something that supports a USB connection) connected to it. Lots of good info can be gleaned for the data logs if you can figure out how to interpret the data.
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Unread 04-22-2019, 08:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Update: I purchased a Navitas TSX3.0 600amp controller, wire harness and new wires (only 4ga as that is what they had I know 2ga is the best).

First impressions of the TSX3.0 controller, wire harness, speed controller and other stuff.

Well designed and solid. I have to give the engineers some credit as the solid flat aluminum backing will smash right against the heatsink plate on my TXT DCS which will be great for heat exchange.

It is so flat that I am going to put 1mm of high-temp computer grade thermal paste between the controller's aluminum plate and the heatsink mounting plate to increase heat exchange. Probably won't do more than 1-3C improvement but, why not. The old controller had thermal paste on it.

I noticed that when I pealed off my Curtis 1206SX they had used a thermal compound (cheap one!). It appears to be one of those cheap stick on squares that are similar to what old CPU heatsinks for PCs used.

I had to scrape it all off and clean the mounting plate. In fact, the Curtis 1206SX was so stuck on that I had ot use a pallet knife to pop it off the mounting plate! That took a while. The old thermal compound was burnt on. Took me a lot longer than I wanted to clean the mounting plate. Also, there was way too much compound between the old Curtis 1206SX and the thermal plate for my liking. They didn't need to have 3-4mm of the stuff. 1mm application will do the same thing in my personal opinion.

Based on the warp in the controller that JohnnieB pointed out I suspect the controller must have gotten to some pretty amazing temperatures to do this as the old compound was wrecked.

The Wire Harness

It is well designed. Possibly over-designed but, that isn't a problem in my books. The plug that goes into the TSX3.0 controller is a really nice design. You can't screw it up when plugging it in. It only goes in one way. It also has an amazing lock mechanism to keep it in place. It is also easy to unlock it and take it off. Fits snug and no wiggle so you can't accidentally bend a pin when inserting it.

The whole thing is sealed incredibly well for the weather. Nothing on the board is exposed from what I can tell. With electronics like this having them sealed up is great for moisture and other gunk it is good design. Not easy to repair a printed circuit board (PCB) these days.

The Speed Controller

It is "meh". Connector again is top-notch and it is sealed up really well. The problem with the design is that it is a bit clunky in size. There really won't be a great place to mount it on the dash of my TXT. The wire comes out of the bottom of the unit instead of the back. It has a big thick 3M velcro attached on the back. Not the best way to mount anything.

There are two holes on the back that have brass fittings so I guess I could bolt it on from the back. But, that would require me to find a place on my dash that it won't look silly in and figure out a way to put two bolts through the dash so I can screw it on. Ultimately, I would have to remove my dash to do it right. Which I am not about to do.

The unit is also thick and the wire coming out of the bottom isn't very flexible by design. So If you wanted to hide the wire good luck. You will need to drill a hole about 2" away from the unit as there is a jacket to prevent from being bent and pulled out of the unit. Which, is good design but, I would have preferred if the wire came out of the back of the unit and for it to have a mounting plate it could clip into. Say like how a furnace controller works.

The cord is nice and long if you want to mount it on the dash. The problem is the molex connector on the end is quite large. So you have to drill a big hole and you will see the hole because it is all tightly connected. Had the wire come out of the back and they used a mounting plate system you wouldn't see the hole. (Just like you don't see the hole on a Nest Thermostat!)

For my installation, I am probably going to mount it under the seat somewhere as a result. It wasn't a big selling option for me.

It does have a key so you can lock the speed controll and lock out little fingers. I have 3 war boys at home and they like to all turn knobs. So this is a great feature... If I had a place to mount it on my dash that wouldn't look awful. :(

General Observations

I am going to have to mount the TSX3.0 higher on the mounting plate to make room for the solenoid. It is going to be a bit of a tight fit from my dry test of it all. I am going to put 3" posts under the arms of the original solenoid mounting plate. Otherwise, it will sit right on the B+, B-, A1, A2, F1 and F2 cords.

As well, I need to figure out a way to mount my tow/run switch on the mounting plate. Navitas sells an optional TXT mounting kit but, I will probably craft something myself. I am sure Canadian Tire (not just tires!) or Princess Auto has something that will do the same.

Navitas Techs and Team

Impressed. I contacted them on Facebook Messenger prior to the install with a bunch of questions and they answered them all. Even on Easter Sunday! Whoever is watching their social media is right on top of things. They even put me in direct contact with their tech. Who I called twice today to ask questions as the install guide outlines the install of a 1206MX only and not the 1206SX. It is almost identical but, there a few slight differences. Differences that I am sure the experts on this forum wouldn't have to ask.

But, the tech was pleasant, helpful and patient. Answered both my calls on the second ring too.

What I completed today:

1. Removal of the old Curtis 1206SX controller.

2. Cleaning off all the old thermal compound on the mounting plate.

3. Rewiring batteries with new 4ga cable and the positive and negative cables from the battery pack to the solenoid and what will attach to the controller.

4. Labelling of all wires so I don't screw them up.

What I need to do next:

1. Measure the cables coming from the motor to the controller so I can get the right lengths.

If someone knows what length they should be I would be greatful for the information. The less I have to go under my cart the better.

2. Measure the wire going from the solenoid that will go to the controller so I can get the right one.

3. Mount the controller and connect the wires and wire harness.

4. Mount the solenoid on the mounting plate.

5. Cross fingers and hope cart works!

6. Test out the software w/ screenshots.

I included some pictures of the unboxing, old controller removal, gunk covered mounting plate, clean mounting plate and thermal paste I am going to use. (Probably don't need 3 tubes.)

Cheers,
Impaled
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Unboxing.jpg (271.2 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg DisassemblyOfCurtis1206SX.jpg (49.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg MountingPlateWithCrappyThermalPasteStuckOn.jpg (87.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg ThermalPaste.jpg (204.1 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg CleanedMountingPlate.jpg (69.5 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by Imapled; 04-22-2019 at 08:25 PM.. Reason: Forgot to include picture of cleaned mounting plate.
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Unread 04-22-2019, 08:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

If you just order a set of cables they should come in the lengths you need. Or, are you building them yourself?

Can you disassemble that speed control, then mount just the dials, or maybe the whole plate, into the dash? Ive never seen the Navitas version in person. I have the one for the Alltrax, and it was kinda bulky too. I took it all apart and mounted it without the casing. It was very simple, but mine is a series cart so theres only one dial. Just a thought.

Good luck with your install.
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Unread 04-22-2019, 09:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

For those wondering why Navitas and not Alltrax?

I am Canadian. Sourcing golf cart parts is not as easy as in the US. The local dealer I use stocks Navitas. I was able to walk in and purchase the TSX3.0 600amp, correct wire harness and speed controller right off the shelf.

Also, I was able to purchase it in CND dollars, there was no import tariff. When compairing the two and the painful sales taxes and tariffs and duties... It came out as a wash really. Also, if I screwed up the install or got a bad controller I would have to RMA it back to the US. Expensive shipping, holds at the border. It could be a 1-2 month turn around to RMA something these days in Canada.

If I got a defective product from Navitas I can return it to my local dealer. If I need to RMA it I can drive 90 minutes and bring it right into the Navitas HQ in Waterloo, Ontario. If I can't get something working I can probably throw my cart on my trailer and drive it right to their front door.

I did do my research. Read all the threads on here from the very happy customers and excellent distributors/sponsors of Alltrax. It made my choice even harder to make. But, ultimately Navitas won due to geographical location.

There are probably excellent Alltrax dealers in the Greater Toronto/Hamilton Area but, I don't know them. I know my local dealer who is only 15 minute drive from my house. (Which is a problem because I keep buying stuff I don't really need! :) )

Both controllers seemed to me, as a noobie, feature complete and similar. The "bluetooth issue" wasn't a huge issue for me. (See my other posts in this thread.)

Both XCT and Navitas have clunky speed controllers with cords coming out of the bottom of them. Navitas had more features like the key lock etc. Key lock and an extra knob won me over. Even though they both are "meh" when installed.

Both are programmable with software. Navitas doesn't require me to use Windows products. I am a Google user. I use a Google Pixelbook, have a Essential Phone, and piles of Android tablets. My wife and kids all use Chromebooks. My home is fully automated with Google Home and every light switch and major device is all controllable with Google Home. (I am a computer nerd.)

So having to setup a Windows laptop to simply configure the controller was going to cost me additional money. I litterally have only two computers that can run Windows and they each have 1000W power supplies and are full tower cases. Not about to lug one from my basement into my garage to program a controller. (Sorry Alltrax. Linux, Android or iOS would be a great option for super nerdy folks like me.)

As well, I like wireless things. Sure, the Navitas Bluetooth configuration is not the best design but, it was good enough for me. If I was at park like Sherkston Shores where there are probably 8,000+ golf carts I would have thought twice. (Considering you can't leave an open beer on your deck there without someone stealing it!) But, my park has at most 12 carts. My cart is the most advanced. My other components on my cart like the headlights are Bluetooth. I have a phone mount and huge USB-C 45w high-speed charger on my cart to run it all. So, having the Android Navitas app is easy and convinient. The dashboard features of the app, even though "ugly" by design won me over.

I am sure the more experienced Alltrax folks on this site can ramble off a bunch of reasons why it is better than Navitas. I have read the flame war threads. :) I am simply providing insight into my choice. Which, is my choice to make. :) Sure, I may be an idiot and may ultimately be disappointed in my purchase. Nothing I have seen yet has given me the impression I made an awful choice.

But, considering I was on a warped 1206SX controller previously... Anything is an improvement!

Cheers,
Tayken
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Unread 04-22-2019, 09:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeman6 View Post
If you just order a set of cables they should come in the lengths you need. Or, are you building them yourself?
The local dealer is custom making them for me really cheap. I was going to make my own but, he crimps them better and gave me a deal I couldn't refuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeman6 View Post
Can you disassemble that speed control, then mount just the dials, or maybe the whole plate, into the dash?
I will investigate how sealed of a unit it is and report back. It pretty much is a bigger version of the Alltrax one as it has 3 knobs and a key on it. I will measure the thing and take some pictures of it in possible spots later for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeman6 View Post
I took it all apart and mounted it without the casing. It was very simple, but mine is a series cart so theres only one dial. Just a thought.
Indeed. I will check out the speed controller to see how it is put together. This may be a good option to resolve my issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeman6 View Post
Good luck with your install.
Thank you! First time doing anything like this. Total noobie. So I need all the luck I can get.

Cheers,
Impaled
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Unread 04-23-2019, 12:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Local is the way to go for most things and overkill is underrated.

Sounds like you are making the best choices for your specific situation.
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Unread 04-23-2019, 01:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

Hi Everyone,

I got all the new cables installed just now. I had to make my own F1 and F2 cables as my local dealer was out of that wire. The F1 cable had a big chunk out of it. Surprised it didn't short out on me previously. I just used 4ga wire but, everything is now new.

One thing I have to say about the original wiring on this DCS TXT is that it was not up-to-par. The wear on it was shockingly bad. Now, it is indeed a 23 y.o. cart. While I was under it I noticed that the manufacture date on the axle stated 1996. So I am going to assume it is 1996 DCS TXT. Although JohnnieB you did mention that it was a 1994 based on the controller. Unless someone changed the whole back-end prior to me purchasing it. That is a possibility as my solenoid was not stock and shiny and chrome.

I took the serial number off the dash and it is at my trailer hence the reason I can't do the serial number lookup and my trailer park is closed. Didn't take a photo of it either for my records like a goofball.

Cheers,
Impaled
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Unread 04-23-2019, 01:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: EZGO TXT 94-01.5 36v DCS - Motor / Controller Questions

The serial number ought to give us the date the cart rolled off the assembly line. I used 1994 for the header of the thread. All I identified was that it was a DCS controller and it didn't occur to me at the time that EZGO didn't start producing DCS drive carts until 1995.

EZGO buys rear axle assemblies in bulk, so all we know for sure is the cart's manufacture date is after the date on the axle. The date on my 2008 cart's axle is 2007.
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