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Unread 11-06-2019, 11:21 PM   #1
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Exclamation 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Hey all. New member here. Have a 2009 Ezgo 36V PDS with oversized tires, 3" lift, rear seat and use it for around the farm and hunting. Recently decided to purchase D&D motor 170-502-0001, Alltrax 48500 XCT controller, and HD solenoid. Have hooked it all up. Double and triple checked all wiring with schematics but the performance has been a disappointment. Flat ground forward speed is topping out around 2800 RPMs. The reverse speed is topping out around 2500 RPMs despite the programming being set to 50% speed.

I've turned off and on the speed control click box. I've checked all connections. I've checked to ensure I don't have the forward and reverse backwards. I've also reached out to D&D and Alltrax but i'm starting to lose hope in their ability to get me up to speed. Alltrax has said i'm utilizing the correct field map 502-v7.

I've attached some logs from tonight with hope that someone on here can analyze and tell me what's going on.

Thanks for any and all assistance.
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File Type: zip Monitor 11-6-19.zip (217.1 KB, 0 views)
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Unread 11-07-2019, 01:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

What is the tire height? Stock tires are 18" tall.

Do you have any specs on motor other than the projected speed of 14MPH. (D&D used to give both speed and torque [% inc/dec vs stock] but only list speed now)

There are several log files separated by a few minutes on the wheels on ground tab. Did you change any settings between the log files?

What number of poles do you have selected? I'm pretty sure it ought to be 8 poles, or at least my D&D motor is. If you have 4 pole selected, the controller will think the motor is spinning twice as fast as it actually is.

Also, what is the max speed (RPM) set to? (ought to be either 6,000 or 6,500)



With the speed limiting turned of a PDS cart with a XCT-PDS in will have dismal performance. The field mapping and regen braking use the motor RPM to get max performance.

Attached is a screen save of how my XCT was set when I was performance testing it. I have since back off the RPM setting to 6500, which gives me a bit over 25MPH on my 17" tall tires.
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File Type: jpg Controller Tab - Bottom.jpg (160.3 KB, 0 views)
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Unread 11-07-2019, 02:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

You might be having some battery issues.

The battery voltage (as measured between the XCT's B- and B+ terminals) drops 5V or so when the solenoid contact close. Typically, the battery voltage increases a volt or two when solenoid contacts close.

What is actually being measured between B- and B+ is the voltage on the filter capacitors inside the controller, which are kept charged to a a volt or so less than the battery pack voltage and the go to full pack voltage when solenoid contacts close. The batteries had a bit better charge when the wheels off ground log was recorded, but a 2V drop was still seen.

I also noted the LOBAT error (Low Battery) came on, but only for a moment. Set the Under Voltage slider a little lower.

What is Make/Model of batteries and how old are they?


--------------------
The field weakening is fairly conservative. Never went below 3A when in forward and with throttle above 0%.

Was Speed limiting on during the on ground logs?
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Unread 11-08-2019, 11:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Thanks for the reply JohnnieB.

I need to measure my tires for sure but they are definitely slightly bigger than stock tires. My guess is they are slightly bigger than stock with aggressive mud grips but i'll get a measurement.

The only motor specs I have are what you listed.

The log files I attached are all with the same settings. Only difference was jacked up vs. on the ground actually moving.

I have the setting on 8 poles and the max speed set to 7,000.

My settings seem to be in line with your screen shot with the exception that mine is the 500 amp version. I also have the Plug braking set a lot lower as I did not like how much it was slowing the cart down with the pedal released. Would rather be able to coast.

Batteries are less than a year old U.S. Battery brand 6v.

D&D has basically looked at the logs and said the motor is fine, I'll have to talk to Alltrax. Alltrax just got my logs last night and have given me a little feedback but are still looking at the logs. Said something about setting up a test system in their shop to try and emulate my setup.

Just getting concerned that I've spent all this money and I've can definitely tell i've got more torque, but a Iphone measure 10mph just ain't gonna get it.

Thanks again.
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Unread 11-08-2019, 12:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbsb1712 View Post
------------

I need to measure my tires for sure but they are definitely slightly bigger than stock tires. My guess is they are slightly bigger than stock with aggressive mud grips but i'll get a measurement.

The only motor specs I have are what you listed.

The log files I attached are all with the same settings. Only difference was jacked up vs. on the ground actually moving.

I have the setting on 8 poles and the max speed set to 7,000.

My settings seem to be in line with your screen shot with the exception that mine is the 500 amp version. I also have the Plug braking set a lot lower as I did not like how much it was slowing the cart down with the pedal released. Would rather be able to coast.

Batteries are less than a year old U.S. Battery brand 6v.

D&D has basically looked at the logs and said the motor is fine, I'll have to talk to Alltrax. Alltrax just got my logs last night and have given me a little feedback but are still looking at the logs. Said something about setting up a test system in their shop to try and emulate my setup.

Just getting concerned that I've spent all this money and I've can definitely tell i've got more torque, but a Iphone measure 10mph just ain't gonna get it.

Thanks again.
If your tires are the low pressure type (<10 PSI max inflation pressure), they will take a lot more torque to turn than the same height tires that can be inflated to 20 PSI or more.

I'm pretty sure you have a High torque motor (stock plus 20% or more, which won't reach as high of a RPM as a stock motor does with the same voltage applied and same mechanical load imposed. That plus low pressure tires will suppress the top speed, but 10 MPH is a bit lower than I would have guesstimated.


---------
If you post any more logs file, please zip them in the raw .csv format. I can read the Excel file, I just cannot save them after I do what I need to do to analyze them and it is a hassle to redo that stuff to take another look after I close my spreadsheet program.

I add an Original Sequence column, plus Min AVG and Max for each data column and do some sorting as well as removing lines not needed for what I'm looking for. For example, I remove all lines with negative number in the field amps column to view what is happening in forward.
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Unread 11-08-2019, 12:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Oops! Forgot about the batteries.

Here is a SoC chart for US Battery brand batteries.
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File Type: jpg USB SoC 36-42-48V.jpg (176.8 KB, 0 views)
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Unread 11-08-2019, 01:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

I will be definitely running some more logs this weekend. I will check the tires. I'm gonna fill them bad boys as much as I can to reduce any drag they're creating. Alltrax has given me a couple of very minor tweaks to try (adjust the throttle setting and reduce the RPMs down to 3500).

Maybe my tires are softer than I realize. One can hope its that simple.

I appreciate the SoC chart. Let me show my ignorance. What should I take from this chart? When I check my batteries individually with a volt meter after disconnecting the charger the other night they were all 6.3 volts.

Thanks again.
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Unread 11-08-2019, 09:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbsb1712 View Post
1. I will be definitely running some more logs this weekend.

2. I will check the tires. I'm gonna fill them bad boys as much as I can to reduce any drag they're creating.

3. Alltrax has given me a couple of very minor tweaks to try (adjust the throttle setting and reduce the RPMs down to 3500).

4. Maybe my tires are softer than I realize. One can hope its that simple.

5. I appreciate the SoC chart. Let me show my ignorance. What should I take from this chart? When I check my batteries individually with a volt meter after disconnecting the charger the other night they were all 6.3 volts.

Thanks again.
1.

2. & 4. I heard of low pressure tires knocking over 25% off the top speed. (20 down to 15)
Aggressive tread patterns also take more torque to turn, but nothing like low pressure. If you can hear the tires rolling on smooth pavement, torque is being converted to sound.
Of course, there are situation where low pressure, aggressive tread tires are needed, and that is something that can be compensated for, but before the fact rather than after it.

3. Lowering the max RPM. That is a new one on me.
After the tires are pumped up and the throttle calibrate and any of the other tweaks, It would be interesting to see logs with RPM set at 6500 and at 3500 with cart being driven over the same route.

5. The voltages listed on the SoC chart are taken about 12 hours after the charger shuts off and before the cart is used. In other words, the batteries have rested 12hr without being charged or discharged.

The batteries On-Charge voltage of a 6V battery can climb up to about 8.5V, or about 51V for a 36V battery pack, depending on the type charger being used. The On-Charge voltage becomes known as a Surface-Charge the instant charging stops and the surface charge begins decreasing. It take upwards of 12 hours for the battery's chemistry to reach an equilibrium.

When amps are drawn from a battery, the voltage drops. The more amps drawn, the greater the voltage drop. It take about an hour for the battery's chemistry to reach an equilibrium after a discharge occurs.

If you batteries were reading 6.3V, the are less than 90% charged. If the 6.3V reading was obtained shortly after the charger shut off, they are even less charged.

What Make/Model charge are you using. Not all chargers will fully charge US Battery brand batteries and low voltage equates to low speed.

I did see some low voltages in the log files.
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Unread 11-10-2019, 06:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

Thanks again JohnnieB.

Attached are my zipped .csv logs from Friday night. Throttle set at 3500. Tires were all low so I set them at proper if not over pressure. Took it hunting this weekend and it did it's job. Torque is definitely better than I've ever had, but top speed just slower than I expected.

I did check the tires and they are 22 inch.

First I've heard of the 6v battery charging to 8volts. If that's true then maybe I have a charger problem????

Let me know what you see in these logs and please tell me more about the charger/battery level. Are there any tests I should run? I've always gotten around 6.3v on these batteries.

Thanks again.
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Unread 11-10-2019, 07:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2009 Ezgo 36V Motor & Controller Upgrade disappointment

The max the motor reached was 2661 RPM, which translates to 14,0 MPH if your tires are exactly 22" tall. Did you measure them, or is 22" stamped on sidewall? (Height on sidewall can be and inch or more off in either direction.)

Unfortunately, 84.9 amps were already being drawn from battery by the time the log started recording, so I didn't get a good start reading for the battery voltage.

I usually start logs with key off and F/R in neutral, so the first few lines are mostly "0"s. And after turning key on and selecting a direction ,. I usually press the pedal very slowly until solenoid clicks, pause for a moment and then drive like I normally do. That gives me a clean starting point for battery voltage. The first line with the relay status of "1" is the battery pack voltage at the start of the run.

The battery voltage did drop to 29.5V and a LOBAT error flag was set momentarily. The only times the battery voltage was within the typical range was following periods of regen braking, which is charging the battery.

As for battery voltage while on charge, it depends on the charger being used. If you have one of the legacy chargers (ferroresonant transformer type), they are designed around the Trojan battery recommended charging profile and shut off in the 44V to 46V range while US Battery brand batteries require
a minimum of 45V, so about half of the old type chargers won't fully charge US Battery products.

If the battery has sit for 12 hours, 6.3V is less than 90% charged, if they have sit for less than 12 hours, the SoC is even lower. 100% SoC is 6.41V for US Battery batteries.

What make model charger do you have?
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