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Old 10-27-2012, 11:21 AM   #1
3ftover
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Default battery and charger questions/ issues

So I'm new to the forum, bought my cart three days ago. 2007 EZGO TXT with Trojan T-105 batteries. Can't read date on some but some I can and those are Feb 2010 (B0) batteries. Came with a Powerwise QE charger which I have now read all kinds of not so good post. Anyway, the LED battery meter on the cart seems to fall quickly after a full or all night charge. The charger always blinks green, never solid indicating fully charged. First question, is the charger bad or have the batteries reached a point where they will not charge 100%? I don't have a hydrometer so I checked using a voltage meter. After charging last night, riding a bit this morning (30 minutes), the voltage reads 6.2 on one, 6.3 on four, and 6.0 on the other. 38.0 on the whole pack. The LED meter on the cart has dropped three bars. The batteries reading 6.0 and 6.2 have the lights connected to them for 12V. So the two worse batteries of the bunch have the lights connected to them. Second question, I'm guessing I should invest in a voltage reducer and connect the lights to the other side of the pack or is this setup okay? Third question, are my readings seemingly acceptable and are the two worse batteries causing the problems? Fourth question, how accurate are these LED battery meters installed on carts? Last night while cleaning post and cables knowing the cart was dead it would show fully charged, than two bars depleted, back to fully charged, etc. Last question, do they or can they give false readings? I know this is a lot, hope it is acceptable, thanks.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:52 AM   #2
JohnnieB
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ftover View Post
1. So I'm new to the forum, bought my cart three days ago. 2007 EZGO TXT with Trojan T-105 batteries. Can't read date on some but some I can and those are Feb 2010 (B0) batteries.
2. Came with a Powerwise QE charger which I have now read all kinds of not so good post.
3.Anyway, the LED battery meter on the cart seems to fall quickly after a full or all night charge.
4. The charger always blinks green, never solid indicating fully charged.
5. First question, is the charger bad or have the batteries reached a point where they will not charge 100%? I don't have a hydrometer so I checked using a voltage meter. After charging last night, riding a bit this morning (30 minutes), the voltage reads 6.2 on one, 6.3 on four, and 6.0 on the other. 38.0 on the whole pack.
6. The LED meter on the cart has dropped three bars.
7. The batteries reading 6.0 and 6.2 have the lights connected to them for 12V. So the two worse batteries of the bunch have the lights connected to them.
8. Second question, I'm guessing I should invest in a voltage reducer and connect the lights to the other side of the pack or is this setup okay?
9. Third question, are my readings seemingly acceptable and are the two worse batteries causing the problems?
10. Fourth question, how accurate are these LED battery meters installed on carts?
11. Last night while cleaning post and cables knowing the cart was dead it would show fully charged, than two bars depleted, back to fully charged, etc.
12. Last question, do they or can they give false readings?
13. I know this is a lot, hope it is acceptable, thanks.
1. Welcome to BGW! You've got the date codes right. The batteries might be a few months old since Trojan sometimes post dates their batteries on anticipated installation dates.

2. The QE chargers are basically throwaways. When it fails, pick up something like this. http://www.cartsunlimited.net/48v_Battery_Charger.html
I use the 36V version and love it. Of course there are other chargers out there. Do some research and make your choice.

3. I'm not a big fan of LED bar-graph battery level meters. Some of the tell more lies than politicians do.
Replace it with a Digital meter and you will know what the battery voltage is.
Here is what I use: http://www.cartsunlimited.net/Digita...ry_Meters.html

4. How long is never? Or what is the longest the batteries have been on charge?
What is the on-charge battery pack voltage after the charger has been connected to them all night?
If voltage is in or above the 44V to 46V range, the charger or charging loop is sick.
If the voltage is below the 44V to 46V range, the batteries or charging loop is sick.

5. The battery pack is imbalanced, due to two batteries being used for lights, but seems to be in pretty good shape otherwise. They can probably be equalized to within 0.1V with a little work and stay that way if a 36V 12V converter is used for lights/accessories.

6. This is a bit tricky, but the LED meter may be reading the surface charge batteries acquire when they are fully charged, which depletes rapidly and isn't an accurate measure of the battery's SoC (State of Charge)
The meter might not be lying, it may simply not know what 100% SoC is.

7. Those two have more amps pulled out of the than the rest, so they don't get charged as fully since the charge rate is the same for all of them.
If you have a 6V charger, charge those two up separately. Charge them until the on charge voltage is 7.5V.
Second best, use a 12V charger and charge the pair in series until the on-charge volts is 15V.
Yo don't have to disconnect the battery cables to charger the separately.

8. Yes, get a 36V to 12V reducer and feed all 12V stuff from it, or another option is to add a separate 12V battery for lights and accessories.
The separate 12V battery is less expensive, but it is more of a hassle since you have to remember to charge it.
Either way is better than tapping the main battery pack and imbalancing it.

9. The two batteries are being and have been abused, but probably still have a few years of live left in them.
I suspect they will be the first to fail, but the worst is only 0.3V less the the good four, so They probably aren't causing any problems other than a slightly reduced run-time.
If the run-time is suspected to be too short, more testing is needed.
IE: Record battery voltages 12 hours after the come off charge (so surface charge is depleted, drive cart until pack voltage is down to 37V and record battery voltages again. The difference between highest and lowest voltages should still be about the same as they were when they were fully charged.

10. It depends on which LED meter is installed, there are four or five different flavors.
Some recalibrate to 100% when recharging occurs, other assume 100% is whatever the voltage is when they are connected, others have preset calibrations.
Personally, I would replace it with a DVM type or an old analog type.

11. Apparently you do not have the preset calibration type.

12. Yes and No to both parts. Technically, unless they have failed, they give accurate readings, but we humans have no idea what scale they are using or where 100% is on that scale.

13. If you don't know something - Ask.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:41 AM   #3
3ftover
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Thanks so much JohnnieB!

4. Never being at least 12 hours. This has happened twice, again last night. Plug the cart in, wake up to blinking red light (new question). Was blinking green when first plugged in. LED meter indicates not fully charged, 2 bars depleted. Voltage reading on pack in 39 even this morning after 12 hour charge . When this happened a few days ago, I unplugged and replugged, blinked green again and within two hours LED meter was full. My pack, since I bought on Thursday has never been above 40V.

9. (Sort of as my earlier readings included surface charge) Also, last night prior to charging I checked voltage on all batteries, one of the two in question was below 6, say 5.8, 5.9.

7. Thanks, I'll try that.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

I don't think your charger is working, or at least not working right.

A short Green blink means the pack is less than 80% charged and a long Green blink means it is over 80%, but less than 100% Solid Green means the batteries are fully charged, or at least what the charger thinks 100% is.

Blinking Red is an error code. Here is a list.
(It is hard to read because it is so small, but that's all I've got on the QE. Also, the information in #5 in the left column isn't true. Once it shuts off, it stays off.)

Here is the way it should work:
Connect a voltmeter to main positive and negative terminals of battery pack.
The voltage will tell you how discharge the battery is. (Here is a State of Charge vs Voltage chart.)
Plug charger into cart.
The voltage should start climbing and the the Charger LED should short Green blinks.
When the pack's on-charge voltage climbs to about 41V, the charger should have long Green blinks.
(I'm not sure of the exact voltage, but I pretty sure it would be above 40V and less than 42V.)
When the pack's on-charge voltage climbs into the 44v to 46V range, the LED should go to solid Green and the charger will stop charging.
The LED will stay green, but the pack voltage will begin to slowly decrease as the surface charge depletes to the batteries intrinsic self discharge.
(About 1% of stored energy per day is typical - Stored energy and terminal voltage do not have a linear relationship until surface charge is depleted)

------------
Ouch!!!!! The batteries are less than 50% charged.
Don't use them until they get charged and get them charged as soon as possible.

If necessary, use a 12V charger and charge them in pairs. Give each pair about an hour and then go back and give them another hour each.

The plates sulfate heavily below 6.0V, so get them above that as soon as you can.

-------------
The voltage on the SoC chart are taken after the batteries have rested for 12 hours after being charge, but a short ride (5 minutes) will also deplete the surface charge.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:33 PM   #5
3ftover
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Soooo the battery pack reads at this very moment 40.8. It has been charging since 12:00 pm. It charged 12 hours last night and we rode very little this morning. Based on a suggestion from JohhnieB when I plugged in at 11 am I watched the voltage climb from 38 something to over 41v. Lets say 41.3. But no improvement since. Also my charge has the same stinking green light blink. I don't if it is the long blink or short blink. The individual battery voltage ranges from 6.5 to 6.8 now while charging. Any suggestions.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

One more thing. I can hear my batteries boiling. Thought this was normal but I read some older post and think maybe not. I'm thinking my charger charges but for whatever reason it does not cut off and overcharges thereby reducing the voltage, boiling the batteries, then times out and blinks red. Possible?
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

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Originally Posted by 3ftover View Post
1. One more thing. I can hear my batteries boiling. Thought this was normal but I read some older post and think maybe not.
2. I'm thinking my charger charges but for whatever reason it does not cut off and overcharges thereby reducing the voltage, boiling the batteries, then times out and blinks red. Possible?
1. The "boiling" you hear is called gassing and it is normal.

When the charging current flows through the battery's electrolyte (Diluted sulfuric acid), the water (H2O) in it decomposes into the Hydrogen and Oxygen gases it is made of in a process that is called electrolysis.

The gas molecules generated by the electrolysis of water, collect on the battery's plates (Oxygen in the positive plates, Hydrogen on the negative), where they form a bubble and when the bubble they form is big enough, it rises to the surface of the electrolyte.

Electrolysis of the water in the electrolyte actually occurs throughout the battery charging process, but isn't very noticeable until until the on-charge voltage rises into the 2.3V per cell range, or about 41V for an 18 cell (36V) battery pack. At that point and above, enough gas is bubbling to the surface to create a "boiling" sound.

Please note that only the water in the electrolyte is decomposed, the sulfuric acid doesn't, so only the water needs to be replaced to return the electrolyte level in the cell back to their proper fluid level. Use distilled water only, because any impurities in the water may kill the battery.

--------------
2. Your conclusion is skewed a little technically, but you are on the right track.

The batteries are not being fully charged, but we cannot tell for sure if the problem is the batteries or the charger.
If the charger was the older transformer type, taking the cover off and making a few measurements would tell us if it was working correctly, but not so with a QE.

If at all possible, try charging your cart with a different charger, or try to charge a different cart with your charger.
That should tell us which is bad, the charger or the batteries.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Ok. I think I'm getting closer to figuring it out. Maybe. Unplugged the cart from the charger last night. Say 8:30. Battery readings were 6.39, 6.37, 6.38, 6.36, 6.21, 6.38. Did not charge last night. Readings at 6 am this morning are (in same order as above) 6.33, 6.28, 6.31, 6.28, 5.85, 6.31. So batteries are roughly at 90% charge. One is at 20%. I'm guessing the one at 20% should be replaced. Im guessing maybe the bad battery is causing my charger to malfunction. So replace the one battery with a good used one and see if that fixes all. Yes? Thoughts?
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Ok. Now I'm confused. Read above post and then... Removed bad battery. Taking it somewhere today to get checked. After unhooking, retested all and all except one removed were above 6.35...??? One removed actually went up from 5.85 to 5.89. When bad battery was connected was it bringing down the good ones?
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: battery and charger questions/ issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ftover View Post
Ok. Now I'm confused. Read above post and then... Removed bad battery. Taking it somewhere today to get checked. After unhooking, retested all and all except one removed were above 6.35...??? One removed actually went up from 5.85 to 5.89. When bad battery was connected was it bringing down the good ones?
Your bad battery could have a short in one cell. It could cause the pack voltage to drop. It could prevent the charger from completing the charge cycle. It could prevent the self setting Curtis LED from getting a correct "full" setting. Replace the battery and then connect the meter to the pack with clamps or tape and post the battery pack voltage reading while sitting still and under load of driving.
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