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Old 01-28-2014, 07:42 AM   #1
cyclebender
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Default Understanding solenoids

Hate to ask such a stupid question, but not sure I completely understand the differences between the various voltage ratings of solenoids, ie 12 volt, 36 volt and 48 volt. When a solenoid is rated at say 36 volts, does that mean the voltage required to activate the electromagnetic field, or the amount of current that can pass thru the contacts? I'm interested in knowing if I can use a pair of 12 volt continuous duty solenoids, to connect a seventh battery to the battery pack. Thanks guys in helping out a novice.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:33 AM   #2
JohnnieB
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

The voltage rating for a solenoid is for the electromagnet. The Amp rating is for the contacts.

(More correctly, the solenoid is only the electromagnet. When an electromagnet moves a set of contacts, it is then called a relay or contactor. However the electromechanical switch used in a cart is commonly referred to as a solenoid.)

The electromagnet is actually current operated, but it take a minimum amount of voltage to force enough current through the coil to move whatever is being moved. If too much voltage is applied, excessive current will flow and the heat generated will burn out the coil. It depends on the thickness and length of the wire in the coil and the heat tolerance of the wire's insulation, but the solenoid will operate over a range of voltages, which is very narrow for some designs and fairly wide for others.

The contacts the electromagnet closes are rated by the number of amps than can pass without them overheating. The contacts will have various voltage ratings, but they pertain to arc-over voltage and the like, so the amp rating is typically the key factor.

For a boost relay setup, the coil voltage must match whatever voltage you are going to use to energize it and the contacts amp rating must be equal to or greater than the amps that will be passing through them.

The 12V relays should work if you can find 12V someplace to run them, but if the amp rating of the contacts isn't high enough, I hope your fire insurance is paid.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:04 AM   #3
eflyguy
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Why would you want to use solenoids to connect a 7th battery? It should be permanently wired in-place.
..a
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:34 AM   #4
cyclebender
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

The course where I play golf has a very steep hill to navigate. All the electric carts have to exit the cart path and zig zag across the fairway to reach the top. I have a TXT 36 volt series cart that I converted to 48 volts. Has all the components upgraded (cables, f/r switch) including a 400 amp Alltrax controller. I can drive straight up the hill with only myself aboard, but can't quite make it with a second passenger aboard. I have a extra 8 volt battery installed in the cart to run two led lights. By using a pair of solenoids, I can utilize the voltage from the seventh battery to add 8 volts to the 48 volt battery pack. One solenoid to disconnect the third battery from the fourth battery , and one solenoid to connect the seventh battery in series, thus providing the cart with 56 volts to clime that hill. The extra 8 volts would only be used for a very short duration. I'm confident the controller and other components could handle that for 10 second burst..
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

You might be better off letting the passenger walk up the hill.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclebender View Post
.............One solenoid to disconnect the third battery from the fourth battery , and one solenoid to connect the seventh battery in series, thus providing the cart with 56 volts to clime that hill..............
The timing on that is going to be tricky. It takes a few milliseconds for the contacts to open after the voltage is removed from the coil and while it also takes a few milliseconds to close the contacts after voltage is applied to the coil, but there is the possibility of both sets of contacts being in a conductive mode at the same instant in time and if that happens, both sets can weld in place and explode the seventh battery.

A pair of SPDT contactors would be safer. Wire the 48V path through the NC contacts and the 56V path through the NO contacts and wire the coils in parallel and energize them with a momentary contact switch.

---------
However, adding a seventh battery to the pack to climb a steep hill is treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease.

You stated that: "All the electric carts have to exit the cart path and zig zag across the fairway to reach the top."
Does that mean gas powered can climb the hill?

If so, your cart's setup needs a little tweaking since with the proper setup, a series electric cart will climb any incline a gas cart will.

Based on the attached chart, what is the approximate grade of the hill?

My sepex drive cart loses traction before it loses climbing power and series drive carts have more low end torque than sepex drives.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hill Grade Conversion Chart.JPG (71.3 KB, 0 views)
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Thanks for the input, sure don't want to destroy what has taken time and money to build. Only have two gas powered carts on the course, both have trouble getting up the hill. I will look into cost and availability of a pair of contractors. If I understand you correctly, one contractor would open the the 48 volt circuit and the other would close the 56 volt circuit. Activate both with one momentary switch? Thanks again for your help.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclebender View Post
The extra 8 volts would only be used for a very short duration. I'm confident the controller and other components could handle that for 10 second burst..
If you're wrong, it's gonna get real expensive.

FFFFTTTT!

Just like that.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclebender View Post
Thanks for the input, sure don't want to destroy what has taken time and money to build. Only have two gas powered carts on the course, both have trouble getting up the hill. I will look into cost and availability of a pair of contractors. If I understand you correctly, one contractor would open the the 48 volt circuit and the other would close the 56 volt circuit. Activate both with one momentary switch? Thanks again for your help.
No, they work in synchronization with each other and both open the 48V circuit a split second before they both close the the 56V circuit.

A cable from Battery-3 connects to the C (Common) contact on one contactor and a cable from Battery-4 connects to the C contact on the other contactor.
A cable is connected between the NC (Normally Closed) contacts on both contactors. This is the 48V circuit.

A Cable from Positive side of Battery-7 are connected to the NO (Normally Open) contacts one contactor and a cable from the negative side of Battery-7 connects to the NO contacts of the other contactor. This is the 56V circuit.

(Be sure to watch the polarity so the seventh battery adds to the pack voltage instead of subtracting from it)

The coils of both relays are connected in parallel and connected to the coil voltage source through a single switch so both contactors are energized simultaneously. The switch can be a toggle switch, or a pushbutton type.

When no voltage is applied to the contactor coils, you have a 48V system.
When voltage is applied, you have a 56V system.

Since the NC contacts have to break before the NO contacts will make, and you are making/breaking both ends of the boost loop, and both contactors are being energized at the same instant, the possibility of putting a dead short across Battery-7 is reduced to almost nil.

The G-Man is right. 56V might blow up the controller and some other $tuff.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:27 PM   #10
cyclebender
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Default Re: Understanding solenoids

Think I will forget this idea. Save enough money to purchase a high torque motor from Plumquick. Thanks for all you help. In reference, the hole with the steep hill is the seventeenth, and a lot of the first sixteen holes have smaller hills to climb, so all the electric carts have been put to some use before they get to the seventeenth. Gas cart don't loss power as there are being used, so they can manage the hill a little better than most electric carts.
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