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Old 12-29-2010, 11:30 AM   #61
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

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Originally Posted by sonicj View Post
1. i personally found the video more informational than commercial. his quick & dirty method for identifying bad cells was news to me.
2. i already started building one! just missing a few parts... i'll definitely log & report my findings!
-sj
U can't put the fox in charge of the hen house,
we need a unbiased Volunteer, with equip and suspect batteries .
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

As I said in another thread, the first person to point me to a scientic paper to prove that Epsom Salts / magnesium / snake oil works will have me sold. The only caveat is that the paper has to be produced by in independant source such as the American Standards Association, Which Magazine or a university. I couldn't find one and I bet you can't either.
BTW, the "well it worked for me" arguement doesn't cut it. That's like saying smoking isn't bad for you because my gran smoked 40 a day for all her life and dies at the age of 99 when she was hit by a bus.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:47 PM   #63
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

Yeah but if she would have been paying more attention while crossing the road and not stopping to lite that cig. she'd still be alive .
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:18 PM   #64
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

it'll give a snail a run for his money! you can connect it a pair of series cells without breaking the string or you can even scale up the design and pulse the entire pack. im starting with a single battery design.

Quote:
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U can't put the fox in charge of the hen house,
we need a unbiased Volunteer, with equip and suspect batteries .
huh? i have no motive to taint results.... its not my design nor do i have any vested interest in the diy pulse charger market. the design is public domain, anyone can go down to radio shack, pick up the parts and build their own for a few bucks.

i do have the equipment to log and graph both charge and/or discharge cycles of lead acid batteries. you are welcome to challenge my findings if you feel my data or technique is flawed.
-sj
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:49 PM   #65
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

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You do have some nice readings on those batts




The one thing about that video that I thought was messed up was the 3 weeks he suggested you leave the charger and pulsar on the battery for ??? Who has that kind of time 3 weeks each times 6 = over 4 months to do a set of batteries? Did I hear that wrong and Yes, that was a bit of unpaid for advertising.
ScottyB,
I just checked my batteries again since I had nothing else to do, they were all at 6.39 to 6.40 after being off charge for 7 or 8 hours. I'm guessing thats pretty good for 33 month old batteries.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:59 AM   #66
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

ok if i can chime in again on this subject

Epsom salts will NOT magicly make a battery work like new

It DOES however improve the conductivity of the electrolyte in the battery

making is seem like the battery is working better/ holding more of a charge

and it will somewhat help desulphate in normal charging simply from the electrolyte being more conductive.

but ultimatly it has no net effect on renewing the plates in the battery

it just helps to make the most out of what is left.
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:37 PM   #67
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

If you want to desulphate them chemically, you must use hot water and Tetrasodium EDTA.

It is a chelating agent. It will pull the Sulphated lead off the plates. It will reduce the total amount of lead in the battery, but can often breathe new life into a badly crusted battery.

It is no replacement for regular daily electronic desulphation. It is only a last ditch effort.

I have save many cart batteries with it and got another year or 2 out of them.

I typically flush them with the EDTA them refill them with fresh electrolyte and then run a desulphation and reconditioning cycle on the charger 2-5 times.


Here is a decent article. Not written by me.

"Here is the way one man does it:

On my system, electronic pulsing is accomplished by pulsing with a modified Don Denhardt thermistor controlled pulser. It's just a matter of leaving the pulser connected long enough to erode the sulfate crystals back into the electrolyte. From a couple of days to a month, depending on the amount of sulfation you want to remove...The last 10% is hard to remove and takes longer than the first 90%.

I sometimes use EDTA on the really badly sulfated batteries, when I don't want to waste a month or two on it with pulsing. The fastest way is to empty out the electrolyte and flush the battery with distilled water, then desulfate with EDTA. I just pick the battery up, turn it upside down and shake it to get the fluids out. It's a lot of work, but it works fast...but be aware that it is harsh and dangerous, with a higher failure rate, due to the plates breaking down and shorting out. Acid gets on you; You must keep it flushed off with lots of water. I repeat, it is harsh and dangerous...I don't encourage this method, but is useful in culling otherwise useless batteries for desulfation. Shorted batteries are never candidates for desulfation. Don't mess with them. If you find a 12V battery with less than 10.5 volts, I almost guarantee one or more of the plates are shorted. I won't touch a battery that is lower than 11.5V as a rule. I have heard of adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in the distilled water stage to further raise the ph, to speed up things...but it is a nightmare of flushing with distilled water, to get the bicarb out. Otherwise, it's a waste to add fresh electrolyte. I wouldn't recommend it at all. Even though I buy distilled water at Walmart for 58 cents a gallon, I would have to use 10 gallons of flushing and my arms would fall off from the shaking and it's not worth it.

The Process:

I first shake the battery around to loosen the shedded plate material on the floor. After shaking the electrolyte and debris out, I fill it halfway with distilled water, shake it around and empty it out while shaking. After flushing a couple of times with distilled, the water comes out fairly clean. I then fill it with distilled water, add the EDTA (dissolved with distilled water) and let the battery sit for a couple of hours. If it is badly sulfated, it will immediately bubble like the devil from the chemical reaction. After the resting period, I then put a 2 amp charge on it and usually add the pulser to help it along. After a day or so, the voltage hits 12.5V and plates are nearly cleaned. I then let it sit for day, with only the pulser on it. The voltage usually drops to 10.5 or lower. I pull the pulser and charger, and connect my 100 or 50 amp load tester (depending on battery type and size). After a couple of 10 second tests, to check the condition, I run the battery down further for a couple of minutes (about thirty seconds at a time, to prevent overheating the load tester), to drain it down. Apparently, the desulfation process works quicker when the battery has been quickly drained and is slow charging again (this also works in pulsing alone). I've use a heavy steel tire iron across the posts for 10-15 seconds on non-desulfated batteries and recharged. Doing this (hot discharge) on any lead acid battery, at anytime, (with or without EDTA or pulsing), filled with regular electrolyte or distilled water, will always cause the amount of reserve current to rise. This can always be verified when later charged fully up and tested with a load tester...It probably exposes more fresh plate area. This rough treatment also will kill a battery with crumbly plates and weak separators. It may cause the battery to blow up, especially if the electrolyte level is low (more room for hydrogen and oxygen gas to accumulate-that's another reason to keep the battery topped off with distilled water) ...Don't be tempted. Acid is nasty to the face and eyes. A battery with the water level lowered to the top of the plates has enough trapped gas to explode the battery like a small bomb....That's no exaggeration...I've seen it happen.

I then drain the distilled water thoroughly, add fresh electrolyte and let the battery rest for a couple of hours. The final act is to recharge the battery up to 13.5V on a long slow charge. About seventy five percent of the shorts will show up now. Most of the tears in the plastic separators were hidden by the sulfate crystals. Lead sulfate crystals act as insulators, keeping the swollen or crumbly plates from touching. When the crystals are gone, any deformaties in the plates, along with tears in the separators, will cause the plates to touch and short when charged up to about 12.5-12.75V. If the battery passes these rigors, it is going to live for a long while.

Remember, the batteries I use this harsh method on are old and badly sulfated to begin with; non-shorted junkers. I want to weed the terminal ones out, right then, and not even save the marginal ones, which are going to short and die six months or a year down the line anyhow.

Good candidates for desulfation are relatively young batteries, that have become sulfated thru neglect and extended discharge. A new battery can become completely sulfated if left nearly fully discharged, in only a couple of weeks. The plates are fairly new, but covered in crystals. These newer batteries better respond to any type of desulfation with a lesser rate of shorts.

If you have the time, electronic desulfation usually the safest method. The next safest method would be to add a small dose of liquid EDTA to the old electrolyte and let it work slowly over time. EDTA doesn't like to dissolve in acid. If you start with powdered EDTA, dissolve it in very warm distilled water. EDTA works slowly in an acid environment. After removing the crystals, most the EDTA/crystal compound breaks down in the acid and some of the EDTA is free to work again. It permanently bonds in a non-acid environment, but works quicky.

I prefer electonic pulsing over EDTA, because when the eroded crystals dissolve, the sulfate is released back into the electolyte and some of the lead or lead peroxide plate material is "plated" back onto the respective plates, the rest settling onto the floor of the battery case. More of the plate material ends up on the floor with the use of EDTA, but most batteries have an excess of material to start with, and full current reserve is maintained. The exception are very old batteries, where most of the plates have already shedded on to the floor to begin with and the desulfation process reduces the plates down to nearly the capacity before the desulfation began. Toss'em in the recycle heap and find a better candidate to work on.

The bottom line is, if you wait too many years to begin any type of desulfation, the battery probably won't be worth the effort. I'd start pulsing batteries within six months, to a year of use, for at least a day or two.

Desulfation works best in higher temperatures. The best time to pulse your batteries in your vehicle and battery bank is summer. Make it a habit to pulse all of your batteries every summer and you will extend the life of them four or five times...Eventually, enough of the plate material will shed off to the point where the battery's reserve is reduced to 50% of the original reserve...That is the time to send them off to the recycler... not because of deep sulfation, or shorts caused by sulfates swelling the plates, crumbling them and rupturing the separators.
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

Quote:
Originally Posted by turboaz2 View Post
If you want to desulphate them chemically, you must use hot water and Tetrasodium EDTA.

It is a chelating agent. It will pull the Sulphated lead off the plates. It will reduce the total amount of lead in the battery, but can often breathe new life into a badly crusted battery.

It is no replacement for regular daily electronic desulphation. It is only a last ditch effort.

I have save many cart batteries with it and got another year or 2 out of them.

I typically flush them with the EDTA them refill them with fresh electrolyte and then run a desulphation and reconditioning cycle on the charger 2-5 times.

Yes EDTA or ethalynediaminetetracidicacid is the main ingredient to many of the "snake oils" out there
But to understand what it does you must know how it works.
It is a chelating agent meaning it binds itself to heavy metals (like lead)
and is used to treat people with metal poisioning

in a battery its a little more complex

EDTA will bind with the free lead atoms in a battery, preventing them from becoming lead sulfate or PBso4
and will seperate some of the PBso4 that has weaker bonds
returning the sulfuric acid back to the electrolyte
and some of the lead back to the plates

now this is a basic explanation of what happens with EDTA. there is alot more to it and i urge you to do your own research before trying it.

the other factors as far as battery deteroration are loss of oxygen and hydrogen, water and plate equalization.
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:13 PM   #69
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

I have had good luck with just rinsing out the batteries with distilled water then refilling with Hot water EDTA Mix and agitate on a shaker table (vibrating table for removing bubbles from concrete molds) for 5 minutes.

Drain and rinse 3 times with distilled and refill with fresh electrolyte.
The shaker table will kill damaged or swollen batteries and clean the mildly sulfated.


Pulsed electronic desulfating is still the best way.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:05 PM   #70
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Default Re: Desulfating batteries with epsom salt

Inox Battery Conditioner

Mx2

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DISSOLVES BETTER BY KILLING SULPHATION, BETTER AND FASTER COLD MORNING STARTS, CONSTANT BRIGHTER LIGHTS, RAPID POWER RECOVERY AND RECHARGE HOLDS CHARGE LONGER BETWEEN USE, INCREASES BATTERY EFFICIENCY UP TO 18%.

Approximately 70% of lead-acid batteries, over a period of time, stop operating because of a build build-up of lead sulphate (sulphation) on the plates. Charging the battery does not stop this sulphation from happening. INOX-mx2 Battery Conditioner is an electro-chemical catalyst that can be added to any lead-acid batteries to increase the performance and life of the battery.


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