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Unread 12-06-2015, 01:02 PM   #1
Not Yet Wild
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Post EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Late 70's marathon, no tag on it so don't know exact year, just did a bunch of work to it (cylinder, piston, coil, carb, plug, points and condenser). After reassembly, ran good in reverse but not so good forward so looked further and found 1 forward/reverse microswitch bad so replaced them both (behind F&R selector). Hooked everything back up, runs great in reverse- clutch grabs belt all the way to the top, maybe 1/2 way in forward-no change. Checked continuity of wires-all good...thinking if I had bad wire it would run lousy in reverse too. The contacts behind the f/r selector look good but could this be it? Btw-is still up on jack stands so no load-if this makes any difference. Thoughts? Thanks!
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Unread 12-06-2015, 01:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Usually running good in reverse but not forward is a sign of bad crank seals or misaligned leaking seal.

Not sure how its running. Has no power? Coughing? erratically running? No speed?

Did you check the timing with a timing light in forward and reverse? Could be a little off. Can be really finiky.

One more idea, did you take the clutch apart and clean, lube it? Could be hanging up and reverse is vibrating just right allowing it to work right.
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Unread 12-06-2015, 03:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

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Originally Posted by my1423 View Post
Usually running good in reverse but not forward is a sign of bad crank seals or misaligned leaking seal.

Not sure how its running. Has no power? Coughing? erratically running? No speed?

Did you check the timing with a timing light in forward and reverse? Could be a little off. Can be really finiky.

One more idea, did you take the clutch apart and clean, lube it? Could be hanging up and reverse is vibrating just right allowing it to work right.
Been shade tree mechanicing for 60 years and don't understand how crank seal will seal one direction but not the other. Please explain.
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Unread 12-06-2015, 05:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Usually when the seals get old they get hard and a wear pattern develops.
The main bearings get just a few thousandths of wear and push into the direction of movement. Just enough to start leaking. when you go into reverse that few thousandths add up and the crank pushes into the other direction sealing part of the leak. The force on the hard seal into a slight different direction deforms the seal on the opposite side and makes it make more contact.
Also the seals have a directional swirl on the lips that are designed to wick fluid back in.
Going backwards pulls a little liquid into the seal making a fluid seal.
Airflow in the crank also changes due to the rod slamming air into the opposite side of the case changing the flow of gas over the seals.
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Unread 12-06-2015, 05:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

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Originally Posted by my1423 View Post
Usually when the seals get old they get hard and a wear pattern develops.
The main bearings get just a few thousandths of wear and push into the direction of movement. Just enough to start leaking. when you go into reverse that few thousandths add up and the crank pushes into the other direction sealing part of the leak. The force on the hard seal into a slight different direction deforms the seal on the opposite side and makes it make more contact.
Also the seals have a directional swirl on the lips that are designed to wick fluid back in.
Going backwards pulls a little liquid into the seal making a fluid seal.
Airflow in the crank also changes due to the rod slamming air into the opposite side of the case changing the flow of gas over the seals.
Great explanation! I agree.
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Unread 12-06-2015, 06:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Hey 1423..thanks for the great explanation on the seal. Was back in the garage today, tried to check/adjust timing with no success, will try again as it did not make any difference, finicky? Yeah I think so. I do have a manual for this (that I got on here) and it does say to "not service the drive clutch". You commented taking the clutch apart and cleaning/lubing it. Are you taking about drive or driven clutch?
You asked about how it's running-speed/power/erratic etc. In reverse it runs and sounds really good and smooth, can't answer the speed part yet, still on jack stands.
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Unread 12-23-2015, 05:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Update-pulled the motor out again today and so far have taken it apart to where I started before-changed piston, cylinder etc., also pulled the drive clutch off.
I thought I would mention that I put up a different post-only other (EC25DS runs like a banshee)- saying that my brushes didn't line up on the armature properly About a 1/16" actually touches the armature..still doesn't make sense why it ran at all.
Anyway, before I did anything to this motor, when I tried to pull the flywheel off, I used the wrong bolt-longer than the actual bolt that threads into the crank thinking that was what I needed to do to get the flywheel off. What I ended up doing I think I may have pushed the crank back. Is that even possible? I have the cylinder off again and the counterweights on the crank (not sure if that is correct term, but that's what I will call them) line up perfectly in the cavity with connecting rod attached in the middle. My1423 commented crank seal-I did have some leakage at that rear seal by the way. I've gone this far, might as well take the rest of it apart and change both seals and bearings.
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Unread 02-22-2016, 03:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Ok, took it completely apart and changed both seals and all 4 crank bearings. Good here. I did find out what I had done before, I bent the crap out of the brush holders when trying to take it apart (using tool wrong-now I know) causing the brush misalignment. Bent em back-carefully, ok here, brushes line up fine. Re-assembled and installed.

My 1423...You were right on your earlier comment on the timing being finicky. Having trouble with this now or am I? When on the jack stands, it ran good (I thought) in both directions and sounded good..no more seal leaking btw.
A few questions:
Now off the stands/load on stills seems to run a bit better in reverse than forward, do you think this is still timing?? F&R selector worked just fine before I pulled engine out but am wondering if you think this might be an issue?? Checked continuity of everything here/have wiring diagram and seems fine. Or do things just need to settle in??

My1423 also commented on cleaning the clutch-assuming you meant drive clutch, this is pretty much the only thing I haven't done-could this be it? Fyi-I did lube crank bearings (and rod) with Lucas 2 stroke oil before firing up and mixed oil 50:1 as I read on here somewhere was best idea for first tank after rebuild. Also installed new spark plug. Just trying to give as much info as possible!
Thanks again for any thoughts/help/advice!
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Unread 02-22-2016, 04:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

After further contemplation, one should really think of all this before clicking post!
I'm thinking drive clutch-the belt pulls all the way to the top in reverse and almost to the top when in forward, maybe an inch short if I had to guess. When running the engine sure sounds like it wants to go faster it just can't...so clutch makes a lot more sense now? Agree/disagree?
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Unread 02-22-2016, 06:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: EC25DS runs great in reverse, not so great forward

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermike View Post
After further contemplation, one should really think of all this before clicking post!
I'm thinking drive clutch-the belt pulls all the way to the top in reverse and almost to the top when in forward, maybe an inch short if I had to guess. When running the engine sure sounds like it wants to go faster it just can't...so clutch makes a lot more sense now? Agree/disagree?
I don't know a lot about carts but I do know that the clutches have a LOT to do with performance. So if the clutch is working fully in reverse, but only 75% in forward, you need to address the issue. I know the manuals say that the clutch is not serviceable and needs to be sent to the factory or just new one purchased, but I know the clutches can be serviced, because my buddy did his. Not to mention that ALL things mechanical can be serviced, it was built in the first place right! In some cases it may not be worth the effort or the money, but trust me, ANYTHING can be serviced.
Tom
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