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Unread 03-09-2019, 09:48 AM   #71
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Unfortunately that leaf cell video that has gone around created a big safety disconnect with users, in my opinion.

While is nice to know that an isolated and disconnected leaf cell can be punctured with a screw driver or burned with a propane torch, it is hard to imagine the practical relevance of those activities.

What the video does not say but unfortunately a lot of folks implied is that resilience to bursting in flames extends to electrical stress.

The Volt had a complex set of 3 cooling systems, one dedicated for the batteries.

During an interview with a Chevy "hybrid powertrain cooling systems algorithm engineer", he mentioned how their studies show heat being a huge factor in life of the cells.

Chevy strongly recommends that any time the Volt is parked that it remains plugged to AC since the pack cooling system can run from the charging system.

Interestingly he also mentioned that ambient temperature was their biggest factor and that the Volt when driven on a 70F day could deplete the entire battery pack without using the cooling system.

While it sounds impressive we also have to remember the engineers limited the discharge on the Volt pack to around 28AH so using a single Volt pack without cooling on a Golf Cart application is outside the original design guidelines.

Lithium batteries store a lot of energy and should be used with safety systems that prevent any cells from exceeding either low or high extreme.

Using a temperature monitor that shuts down the system (Charge and Discharge) if the battery temperature goes below 32F or above 160F is also a good idea.

Accidents happen, life is busy and we forget to turn things ON or OFF all the time so having working automatic safety systems in place to keep us out of trouble is a good idea.

Edit: Found the link to the interview, it has other interesting tidbits like using OnStar to collect real time telemetry data:
http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy...ems-algorithms

Last edited by Sergio; 03-09-2019 at 09:51 AM.. Reason: Link to article added.
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Unread 03-09-2019, 10:28 AM   #72
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Unfortunately that leaf cell video that has gone around created a big safety disconnect with users, in my opinion.



While is nice to know that an isolated and disconnected leaf cell can be punctured with a screw driver or burned with a propane torch, it is hard to imagine the practical relevance of those activities.



What the video does not say but unfortunately a lot of folks implied is that resilience to bursting in flames extends to electrical stress.



The Volt had a complex set of 3 cooling systems, one dedicated for the batteries.



During an interview with a Chevy "hybrid powertrain cooling systems algorithm engineer", he mentioned how their studies show heat being a huge factor in life of the cells.



Chevy strongly recommends that any time the Volt is parked that it remains plugged to AC since the pack cooling system can run from the charging system.



Interestingly he also mentioned that ambient temperature was their biggest factor and that the Volt when driven on a 70F day could deplete the entire battery pack without using the cooling system.



While it sounds impressive we also have to remember the engineers limited the discharge on the Volt pack to around 28AH so using a single Volt pack without cooling on a Golf Cart application is outside the original design guidelines.



Lithium batteries store a lot of energy and should be used with safety systems that prevent any cells from exceeding either low or high extreme.



Using a temperature monitor that shuts down the system (Charge and Discharge) if the battery temperature goes below 32F or above 160F is also a good idea.



Accidents happen, life is busy and we forget to turn things ON or OFF all the time so having working automatic safety systems in place to keep us out of trouble is a good idea.



Edit: Found the link to the interview, it has other interesting tidbits like using OnStar to collect real time telemetry data:
http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy...ems-algorithms
In your personal opinion would you be comfortable using Volt cells for our applications with proper HV/LV protection or would you stay with Leaf cells?

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Unread 03-09-2019, 11:33 AM   #73
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

There are quite a few members using the Volt packs with BMS and have not reported any issues so far.

There have also been other instances due to improper LV or HV that the packs failed.

From the BMS I have seen members use I like the feature set of the Zeva, it is not one of the cheapest, but well engineered from the pictures we have seen from the inside electronics.

We have a member currently installing the new Chargery BMS so we can see how well it works.

On the question of proper LV and HV, a like the simplicity of an external solenoid that when powered OFF disconnects the load or charge.

Even when the BMS supports sending CAN or other data protocol signal to the charger or Controller to STOP, they all support additional relays in case the data communication fails.

It is also good to have some sort of low power mode for the BMS, specially when LV solenoids (and possible HV) are powered all the time.
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Unread 03-10-2019, 08:04 AM   #74
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Interesting video showing a 1st gen Chevy volt battery pack. A few of the cells expanded, and this guy separates them from the rest.

For those wondering what reasons to choose a Leaf pack over a Volt pack, ease of separating the cells is 1 reason. At least for the gen 1 of the Volt batteries, I don't know if Chevy changed it after gen 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tKHrS0V2s
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Unread 03-14-2019, 02:19 PM   #75
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Wow. We can learn a lot from this, thanks for posting.

It is easy for those of us that have lithium to get stuck in the "completely maintenance free" mindset when we don't have to check fluid levels or clean connections, but it helps me to think I haven't logged into my BMS for some time to see what the temperature probes or balance states are. It also helps to check the tightness of the connections not just on the wiring but the bus bars and BMS connections.

It is also easy for people to point the finger at lithium and say "See? See? Too dangerous for golf carts!!!". Truth is, all cart drive systems have caught fire at one point or another. Lead acid emits combustible fumes and gas literally is powered by combustible fluid. Even though they don't have the same compactness of stored energy that lithium has, I will still take lithium any day over the other two. Even in the past two years there have been a number of advances in BMS systems and the batteries themselves. I now am approaching 2,500 miles on my pack and use it every day, enjoying the extra speed, reduction of weight, lower maintenance, faster charging times, longer life, and now even lower cost than a comprable LA setup when you factor in selling the LA charger and cores.
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Unread 03-15-2019, 08:40 AM   #76
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

If you are talking to me:
Lead acid has been the battery all manufactures have chosen because
1. they are safe even when abused or ignored
2. they are forgiving even when abused or ignored.

While some people can use lithium safely a quick search will verify the fire danger with improper set up or use.
While you may be having success I don't think the majority population is ready for this level of use. Too many of them still want to use the cart until it won't go

Have fun and be safe
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Unread 03-15-2019, 09:18 AM   #77
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

A properly designed cart with good BMS and good charger will protect the battery from abuse. I think the reason that Lithium has not taken off in the cart business is cost. I could have bought two sets of FLA batteries for what I paid for my salvage Lithium modules. I think I will still come out even because I expect my Lithium pack to last me 10 years or so.
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Unread 03-27-2019, 02:03 PM   #78
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Jerald J should get a battle field promotion above "not yet wild"
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Unread 04-01-2019, 08:21 AM   #79
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post
If you are talking to me:

Lead acid has been the battery all manufactures have chosen because

1. they are safe even when abused or ignored

2. they are forgiving even when abused or ignored.



While some people can use lithium safely a quick search will verify the fire danger with improper set up or use.

While you may be having success I don't think the majority population is ready for this level of use. Too many of them still want to use the cart until it won't go



Have fun and be safe


Good points, Scotty, but people also forget that lead acid is dangerous too, and not necessarily when abused. Combustible and corrosive gases are constantly being emitted. It only takes a quick google search to see that fires happen frequently.

All in all, even though lithium has greater stored energy and can have a more spectacular failure, I think it is much safer than lead acid if set up properly.




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Unread 05-19-2019, 03:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: 48volt club car limthium battery exploded

If I am not mistaken, one should always use a DRY chemical fire extinguisher with electrical fires. I also believe that water on lithium is a major catastrophe about to happen, because lithium will combust when exposed to water. I am not an expert and can only repeat what I have read and seen. It's probably not a good idea to attempt to put out a lithium or electrical fire with a water hose.
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