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Unread 12-25-2018, 03:51 PM   #1
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Default EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

I am thinking of converting my 2014 2Five to lithium and wanted to know if this would be a good battery pack option. I am considering the 12V 100Ah version which has an internal BMS:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rechargeable-lifepo4-26650-32650-lithium-battery_60701390415.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115 .95.3760421dnOYtiN[/URL]

Battery Type LiFePO4
Nominal Voltage 12.8V
Nominal Capacity 100Ah
Energy 1.28KWh
Internal Resistance ≤20mΩ
Series & Parallel Application up to 4 series 4 parallel connected application
Limited Charge Voltage 14.6±0.2V
Floating Charge Voltage 13.8±0.2V
Charge Method CC/CV
Discharge Cut-off Voltage 10.0V
Standard Charge Current 60A
Max. Charge Current 80A
Standard Continuous Discharge Current 80A
Max. Continuous Discharge Current (<30min) 100A
Pulse Discharge Current (<3s) 350A
Cycle Life > 3000 cycles
Dimension (mm) Length: 323±2 Width: 171±2 Height: 232±2
Weight 15.5±0.2Kg
Charge Temperature Range 0~45℃
Discharge Temperature Range -20~60℃
Recommended Operating Temperature 15~35℃
Self-Discharge Rate (Residual capacity) ≤3%/month; ≤15%/years
Self-Discharge Rate (Reversible capacity) ≤1.5%/month; ≤8%/years
Storage Temperature & Humidity Range (Less than 1 month) -20~35℃, 45~75%RH
Storage Temperature & Humidity Range (Less than 3 months) -10~35℃, 45~75%RH
Recommended Storage Temperature & Humidity Range 15~35℃,45~75%RH
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File Type: jpg Lithium battery.jpg (294.1 KB, 0 views)
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Unread 12-25-2018, 05:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernito View Post
I am thinking of converting my 2014 2Five to lithium and wanted to know if this would be a good battery pack option. I am considering the 12V 100Ah version which has an internal BMS:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rechargeable-lifepo4-26650-32650-lithium-battery_60701390415.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115 .95.3760421dnOYtiN[/URL]

Battery Type LiFePO4
Nominal Voltage 12.8V
Nominal Capacity 100Ah
Energy 1.28KWh
Internal Resistance ≤20mΩ
Series & Parallel Application up to 4 series 4 parallel connected application
Limited Charge Voltage 14.6±0.2V
Floating Charge Voltage 13.8±0.2V
Charge Method CC/CV
Discharge Cut-off Voltage 10.0V
Standard Charge Current 60A
Max. Charge Current 80A
Standard Continuous Discharge Current 80A
Max. Continuous Discharge Current (<30min) 100A
Pulse Discharge Current (<3s) 350A
Cycle Life > 3000 cycles
Dimension (mm) Length: 323±2 Width: 171±2 Height: 232±2
Weight 15.5±0.2Kg
Charge Temperature Range 0~45℃
Discharge Temperature Range -20~60℃
Recommended Operating Temperature 15~35℃
Self-Discharge Rate (Residual capacity) ≤3%/month; ≤15%/years
Self-Discharge Rate (Reversible capacity) ≤1.5%/month; ≤8%/years
Storage Temperature & Humidity Range (Less than 1 month) -20~35℃, 45~75%RH
Storage Temperature & Humidity Range (Less than 3 months) -10~35℃, 45~75%RH
Recommended Storage Temperature & Humidity Range 15~35℃,45~75%RH
Absolutely do NOT try this if you value your 2Five and your money!

You will be returning them, or end up stuck with them if they will not accept returns... after your first attempt to drive the 2Five in a normal manner. The BMS in each of those 12V packs cannot withstand the peak impulse current that they are supposedly "rated" for. One or more of them will do a protection shutdown, creating an open circuit on the total pack. This will destroy your controller from the resulting inductive spike not being absorbable by the pack. This has already been attempted. You will be repeating those failures.

Bob
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Unread 12-26-2018, 03:08 PM   #3
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Posts: 41
Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBoyce View Post
Absolutely do NOT try this if you value your 2Five and your money!

You will be returning them, or end up stuck with them if they will not accept returns... after your first attempt to drive the 2Five in a normal manner. The BMS in each of those 12V packs cannot withstand the peak impulse current that they are supposedly "rated" for. One or more of them will do a protection shutdown, creating an open circuit on the total pack. This will destroy your controller from the resulting inductive spike not being absorbable by the pack. This has already been attempted. You will be repeating those failures.

Bob
Are there any battery packs you recommend? I would like to have my onboard charger / voltage reducer reprogrammed to use with lithiums, but would prefer not to go through the headache of using leaf or volt batteries. I have seen some Elite Power Solutions GBS-LFMP100AHX batteries that also seemed to be an attractive option.

https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/...ion-batteries/
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Unread 12-26-2018, 06:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernito View Post
Are there any battery packs you recommend? I would like to have my onboard charger / voltage reducer reprogrammed to use with lithiums, but would prefer not to go through the headache of using leaf or volt batteries. I have seen some Elite Power Solutions GBS-LFMP100AHX batteries that also seemed to be an attractive option.

https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/...ion-batteries/
I prefer to use Nissan Leaf pack modules, but I had already bought 48 new GBS LiFeMnPO4 100 AH cells. They were bought for my electric Bandolero project...

RXV chassis based road car

32 of them will be used for that project, which leaves 16 cells left over. I'll be using those 16 cells for my 2Five lithium conversion. The onboard charger can be used, as the lithium cells can accept a wide range of charge rates. I suggest that you allow whichever BMS you choose to use control the charger.

Bob
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Unread 12-27-2018, 12:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBoyce View Post
I prefer to use Nissan Leaf pack modules, but I had already bought 48 new GBS LiFeMnPO4 100 AH cells. They were bought for my electric Bandolero project...

RXV chassis based road car

32 of them will be used for that project, which leaves 16 cells left over. I'll be using those 16 cells for my 2Five lithium conversion. The onboard charger can be used, as the lithium cells can accept a wide range of charge rates. I suggest that you allow whichever BMS you choose to use control the charger.

Bob
Are you saying that I can use my onboard charder "as is" and do not need to get it reprogrammed with a new lithium profile?

How do you set it up / wire it such that the BMS controls the charger? I am a noob and do not want to screw anything up!
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Unread 12-27-2018, 02:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernito View Post
Are you saying that I can use my onboard charder "as is" and do not need to get it reprogrammed with a new lithium profile?

How do you set it up / wire it such that the BMS controls the charger? I am a noob and do not want to screw anything up!
Correct. If the charger can reach your target voltage, you just wire a relay to the BMS so that the BMS turns off the charger input (120 VAC) when the battery pack voltage reaches your target voltage. If you use an uncommon number of cells or cell chemistries that have uncommon cell voltages, you would use a BMS that you can set your upper charge limit and your low voltage cutoff limit for. The BMS is the heart of your system, as it is responsible for controlling the charger, low voltage cutoff, and maintain the voltage balancing on your cells. It protects your packs cells from overcharge, overdischarge, and keeping the cell voltages matched. I chose a Chargery BMS and a Chargery charger for my Bandolero pack because it has a display that can be dash mounted for easy setup and pack condition monitoring. My RXV uses a much simpler 7 module Leaf pack and low cost pre-programmed 14 cell BMS that controls a relay that manages the charger, provides low voltage cutoff, and handles battery balancing. You don't have to spend a lot of money, unless you really want to build something more complicated. If you want to read about the lithium conversion part of one of my RXV rebuilds, it starts with this post...

Picked up another cart

Bob
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Unread 12-28-2018, 10:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBoyce View Post
Correct. If the charger can reach your target voltage, you just wire a relay to the BMS so that the BMS turns off the charger input (120 VAC) when the battery pack voltage reaches your target voltage. If you use an uncommon number of cells or cell chemistries that have uncommon cell voltages, you would use a BMS that you can set your upper charge limit and your low voltage cutoff limit for. The BMS is the heart of your system, as it is responsible for controlling the charger, low voltage cutoff, and maintain the voltage balancing on your cells. It protects your packs cells from overcharge, overdischarge, and keeping the cell voltages matched. I chose a Chargery BMS and a Chargery charger for my Bandolero pack because it has a display that can be dash mounted for easy setup and pack condition monitoring. My RXV uses a much simpler 7 module Leaf pack and low cost pre-programmed 14 cell BMS that controls a relay that manages the charger, provides low voltage cutoff, and handles battery balancing. You don't have to spend a lot of money, unless you really want to build something more complicated. If you want to read about the lithium conversion part of one of my RXV rebuilds, it starts with this post...

Picked up another cart

Bob
I am aiming for the simplest conversion using my existing on board charger. I read your RXV build thread and like the simplicity and low cost of using the pre-programmed 14 cell BMS. I have a few questions:

1. I would like to avoid having to wire the relay / charger control box to manage the on board charger. If I do not use a relay and use a 7 module leaf pack, which one of the lithium reprogramming profiles in the attached link would work best with the existing on board charger?

https://www.emf-power.com/product/de...q-programming/

2. Does the link you provided to the pre-programmed 14 cell BMS on ebay work as is (i.e. is “pre-programmed”) or do I need to make sure it is a specific version so it has the correct programming for a 7 module leaf pack?

3. I saw the BMS wiring diagram and was wondering if you had an actual picture of how you wired it before you covered it with the white plastic.

4. Can you confirm I do not need to use an SB120 connector and can just use 2 gauge terminal lug connectors to connect the battery pack to the controller (I would expect to need to upgrade the existing cables from the controller to the battery pack with 2 gauge cables)?

5. Do you recommend any specific bus bars and what did you use for the positive and negative terminals for the 2 gauge cables with the terminal lugs to attach to?

6. cgtech mentions “I hook the bms interlock up to interrupt the controller's throttle input.”. How does that change your BMS wiring diagram?

Sorry for all the questions, but want to make sure I get everything right.
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Unread 12-29-2018, 12:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernito View Post
I am aiming for the simplest conversion using my existing on board charger. I read your RXV build thread and like the simplicity and low cost of using the pre-programmed 14 cell BMS. I have a few questions:

1. I would like to avoid having to wire the relay / charger control box to manage the on board charger. If I do not use a relay and use a 7 module leaf pack, which one of the lithium reprogramming profiles in the attached link would work best with the existing on board charger?

https://www.emf-power.com/product/de...q-programming/

2. Does the link you provided to the pre-programmed 14 cell BMS on ebay work as is (i.e. is “pre-programmed”) or do I need to make sure it is a specific version so it has the correct programming for a 7 module leaf pack?

3. I saw the BMS wiring diagram and was wondering if you had an actual picture of how you wired it before you covered it with the white plastic.

4. Can you confirm I do not need to use an SB120 connector and can just use 2 gauge terminal lug connectors to connect the battery pack to the controller (I would expect to need to upgrade the existing cables from the controller to the battery pack with 2 gauge cables)?

5. Do you recommend any specific bus bars and what did you use for the positive and negative terminals for the 2 gauge cables with the terminal lugs to attach to?

6. cgtech mentions “I hook the bms interlock up to interrupt the controller's throttle input.”. How does that change your BMS wiring diagram?

Sorry for all the questions, but want to make sure I get everything right.
As for reprogramming your charger instead of allowing the BMS to control the charger, you are on your own. Chargers are well known to suffer malfunction and failure. All it takes is a glitch on the input power to confuse the logic in the charger. To remove that protection feature from the BMS is a big mistake.

The BMS PCB that I linked to is preprogrammed with the voltages to match the 7 leaf module configuration. It requires the relay to handle not only the charger, but also the LVCO (low voltage cutoff). The relay is powered by the output of the BMS. I used the seperate electrical box because the relay that I ended up using was too large to fit in the BMS box. I ended up buying a 4PDT relay because the first relay was described wrong on eBay. A DPDT would have been enough.

I used the bus bars that I removed from a Nissan Leaf lithium pack that I bought...

New Acquisition

The plastic covers and end terminals were salvaged from it as well. The bus bars are just copper bars with holes drilled to match the module spacings. You can use 2 guage cables to connect the pack to the cart. I chose the SB120s so I can remove/reinstall the pack quickly if needed. Every interconnection has quick-connect cables for this reason. You can connect the LVCO relay contacts to wherever you want to in order to disable the drive system.

Bob
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Unread 12-29-2018, 11:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBoyce View Post
As for reprogramming your charger instead of allowing the BMS to control the charger, you are on your own. Chargers are well known to suffer malfunction and failure. All it takes is a glitch on the input power to confuse the logic in the charger. To remove that protection feature from the BMS is a big mistake.

The BMS PCB that I linked to is preprogrammed with the voltages to match the 7 leaf module configuration. It requires the relay to handle not only the charger, but also the LVCO (low voltage cutoff). The relay is powered by the output of the BMS. I used the seperate electrical box because the relay that I ended up using was too large to fit in the BMS box. I ended up buying a 4PDT relay because the first relay was described wrong on eBay. A DPDT would have been enough.

I used the bus bars that I removed from a Nissan Leaf lithium pack that I bought...

New Acquisition

The plastic covers and end terminals were salvaged from it as well. The bus bars are just copper bars with holes drilled to match the module spacings. You can use 2 guage cables to connect the pack to the cart. I chose the SB120s so I can remove/reinstall the pack quickly if needed. Every interconnection has quick-connect cables for this reason. You can connect the LVCO relay contacts to wherever you want to in order to disable the drive system.

Bob
Will the mid bus bar BMS wiring in the picture below work with the BMS you linked to in your post? I like the fact that the BMS PCB that you linked to is preprogrammed with the voltages to match the 7 leaf module configuration.

Also, would this be a suitable relay given it only needs to be DPDT?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Pur...ty!93401!US!-1
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File Type: jpg Leaf Pack.jpg (241.6 KB, 0 views)
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Unread 12-29-2018, 11:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: EZGO 2Five Lithium Conversion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernito View Post
Will the mid bus bar BMS wiring in the picture below work with the BMS you linked to in your post? I like the fact that the BMS PCB that you linked to is preprogrammed with the voltages to match the 7 leaf module configuration.

Also, would this be a suitable relay given it only needs to be DPDT?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Pur...ty!93401!US!-1
Yes, that is how the BMS is wired to the modules in the Leaf pack. Great find on the DPDT 48V relay! Perfect for the purpose...
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