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-   -   why is this not talked about more? (https://www.buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=175005)

keepinitreal538 04-13-2021 03:08 PM

why is this not talked about more?
 
So just a quick observation for discussion. With leaf modules all but unicorns at this point. A lot of people are branching out, and with places like alibaba having 1000's of different cells to choose from and prices dropping i think lithium is finally getting the attention it deserves. BUT.... something I don't see discussed is what in my opinion made leaf modules so great... one thin 8.3v module. nothing else like it. AussieInSeattle just built a great pack for $1200 the problem is all the modules i see are 3.2v and thicker then the leafs. I wont to build a 72v or even 96v pack for my DS but without leaf modules i don't think there's space. does anyone know of any other high discharge high voltage smaller stack able modules? or anyone have a source for g2's

WC53 04-13-2021 03:44 PM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Most all are 3.2 because they have the lowest fire risk versus the other technology. The rectangles can be stacked into different 16S configurations. The leaf are much wider as they are already multiple cells in each pack. Stay under 170ah or so and the cells are thinner

Volt_Ampere 04-13-2021 05:56 PM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Leaf modules are very easy to work with. Some of the others are harder to mount and connect to. It's hard to beat a 14 module leaf pack for ease of installation and overall performance.

Murby 04-14-2021 01:46 AM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
3.2 Volt batteries are Lithium Phosphate, leaf modules at 3.7 volts per cell (3.7 x2) are Lithium Ion..

Lithium ion is cheaper than Lithium Phosphate because Lithium Ion is more widely utilized.

Lithium ion packs in a higher energy density which is important for mobile applications.
Lithium Phosphate is safer.. a lot safer, but also twice the cost.

EV Cells are generally (always?) a higher quality than cells marketed to consumers.

You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to buy anything electrical from a Chinese company, especially batteries.
I take that back, I have a couple of 18650 flashlights that work pretty good.

Volt_Ampere 04-14-2021 08:54 AM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
I agree that batteries intended for EV's are higher quality and much more suited to our golf cart application. The drop in batteries are almost all of the 3.2V per cell variety. They work but not as well as the Lithium Ion cells.

emoney 04-14-2021 09:25 AM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Leaf modules are just bag cells inside and there are tons of those on the market, you just don't get the aluminum case. LG Chem server rack modules are relatively thin. If you find the whole rack you have to pull them out and reconfigure because they come as 24v modules, but you need to pull them anyway to install the BMS.

I just built two, 14S 48v batteries out of them for my Carryall build and they both fit down inside the battery compartment.

WC53 04-14-2021 10:48 AM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Murby (Post 1818974)
3.2 Volt batteries are Lithium Phosphate, leaf modules at 3.7 volts per cell (3.7 x2) are Lithium Ion..

Lithium ion is cheaper than Lithium Phosphate because Lithium Ion is more widely utilized.

Lithium ion packs in a higher energy density which is important for mobile applications.
Lithium Phosphate is safer.. a lot safer, but also twice the cost.

EV Cells are generally (always?) a higher quality than cells marketed to consumers.

You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to buy anything electrical from a Chinese company, especially batteries.
I take that back, I have a couple of 18650 flashlights that work pretty good.

That is what makes the leaf cells attractive to me. It is difficult to find quality cells that are not ultra premium in price. I bet half the made in USA products that I have been looking at are at best assembled in the US or a controller is US and batteries are Chinese

Volt_Ampere 04-14-2021 11:14 AM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Pouch cells are not all alike. Quality can vary a lot! LG Chem makes very good cells. By far, the biggest downside to using Leaf cells is that they are used. (maybe abused) We are paying quite a lot for cells removed from vehicles because that is the only way to get them.

keepinitreal538 04-14-2021 03:12 PM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
any one have a source for G2 leaf cells they can share?

Murby 04-14-2021 03:19 PM

Re: why is this not talked about more?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Volt_Ampere (Post 1819048)
Pouch cells are not all alike. Quality can vary a lot! LG Chem makes very good cells. By far, the biggest downside to using Leaf cells is that they are used. (maybe abused) We are paying quite a lot for cells removed from vehicles because that is the only way to get them.

Nissan Leaf cells hold their own special category in the world of salvaged EV batteries.

Unlike many other used cells that have been salvaged for use, Leaf cells aren't just used, they're cooked-used.

Leaf cells don't make it to the used battery market because the car is popular and they're wearing out, there's so many of them available because Nissan screwed up the engineering, went cheap, and failed to put in adequate thermal management of their battery packs. Google the class-action lawsuit.

Natural Convection and air cooling work great with solar storage, but not so much in a car where the battery needs to accelerate a 4000 lb vehicle to 70mph, repeatedly.. on a hot day.

In other words, while most EV cells are on the market for a wide variety of reasons, Leaf cells are on the market because they've exceeded their thermal specifications and are all toasted like an over cooked t-bone steak...

I wouldn't purchase individual cells myself.. but if I ever found a Leaf with less than 30k miles on it that was totaled in a collision, I'd hop on that fast, especially if its origins were from a northern cold climate.

When they are new, Nissan Leaf cells are VERY high quality.. every bit as good or better than any other battery on the market. The thermal management problems just mean that they don't stay that way for very long.

I would love to find a couple full packs from wrecked cars in Michigan or Wisconsin or something.


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