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Old 03-10-2015, 07:47 PM   #11
LATrvlr
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

I heard back from the folks at DPI and they are getting to the bottom of this. Apparently they have very good records and exceptional staff to reply to issues such as this. They had me check an internal label and send that data back for a final determination. I'll post the final word when I get it.

They did confirm how to test and confirm the mode is properly set for a Trojan battery. Here are those instructions:

You may confirm that the proper mode is selected for Trojan batteries using an accurate digital voltmeter. First set the charger to Mode #2 and take the the measurement during Charge Stage #3. This procedure requires a bit of waiting to catch the charger during the correct window of time, as you must wait for the first two charge stages to complete. During Charge Stage #3, the DC output voltage at the charger’s connector terminals should measure between 56.6 and 58.8 volts DC (57.2Vdc +/- 1.0%).
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:49 PM   #12
cgtech
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Sounds "spot on" to me, i would do the same to check it. Sometimes old or junk batts wont ever meet this charge level without extra hours of charging (and battery heat).
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Mystery solved! The nice folks at DPI after just a bit of research confirmed that the label affixed to my charger was done so during manufacturing in error. That label was created for a charger they custom made for a period of time for a buggy OEM and that OEM wanted mode 3 to be for their batteries which were Trojan.

DPI engineering and customer service has went above and beyond to ensure that my charger mode is accurate and that I don't have to worry if the mode is correct or not. Thanks DPI!
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Sorry about the small thread hijack but on the same subject. I just received new DPI charger today and have no idea what mode to set the charger at for Interstate 8V batteries.

thanks
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Perhaps someone will read this and know. If not add a new post with that question as the title and I'm sure you'll get replies. You can call DPI's technical service during normal work hours and they can advise for your battery brand/style.
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Old 03-19-2015, 08:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by yannicksjh View Post
Sorry about the small thread hijack but on the same subject. I just received new DPI charger today and have no idea what mode to set the charger at for Interstate 8V batteries.

thanks
Go ahead and charge the batteries with it as is and then phone or e-mail DPI: https://dpipower.com/store/contact-us

The chargers come from the factor set to Mode-2 (Trojan), which I'm pretty sure is the correct one for Interstate.

Even if it isn't, the Trojan setting is the mildest charge profile and won't hurt the batteries, while not charging them until you find out will age them a bit.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

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Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
You hit the nail on the head.
The 59.2V listed by Trojan is for charger systems with user adjustable output voltages. (Solar and wind RE systems use Trojan batteries also)
The 56.4V is what the DPI puts out in the Absorption phase when in the Trojan mode.

Technically, the 59.2V is Trojan's recommended finish voltage, or the On-Charge voltage at which their batteries should have something close to a full charge, so the charger can be allowed to shut off. This is approximately the voltage that the legacy golf cart chargers shut off at.

A lead acid battery is fully charged when the specific gravity of the electrolyte ceases to increase while a charging current is passing through it. The voltage tracks the specific gravity, so it also ceases to climb and can be used to indirectly determine if the battery has reached full charge. Until microprocessors became small and dirt cheap, dV/dT (Change in Voltage over change in Time) technology didn't exist at the consumer level, so Trojan came up with a finish voltage that was high enough to nearly fully charge a good, mature battery without overcharging aged, but still usable, Trojan batteries.

The DPI uses dV/dT technology, so the 59.2V is more or less a moot point when a DPI or other dV/dT type charger is used.

The finish voltage that switches a DPI charge from the regular charge cycle over to float charge is determined by the batteries reaching full charge rather than a preselected voltage. I don't know the rate of change criteria used for Trojan batteries, but for US Battery batteries it is 4 milli-volts per cell per hour. Whatever change rate is used for Trojan batteries, will take the finish voltage above the 59.2V listed since 59.2V only gives Trojan batteries a nearly full charge rather than a full charge.
I hope this thread isn't too old for you guys to not kill me Is it possibly better for my Trojan Rangers to charge them at mode 3 or 4 on my DPI to get a more "full" charge? Mine seem to peak at 57 volts and float at 52.5 and after reading this, that seems like it isn't getting them to 100%?
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Brand-new & old used-up batteries dont act the same as good, broken-in batteries "in their prime". The charger manufacturers account for this, and try to accommodate all possible battery conditions as best as they can (new ones, perfect ones, worn out ones). Charge & use them a few times & occasionally check their peak voltages again. New batteries dont act like "perfect condition, in their prime of life" batteries to the charger.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by culli292 View Post
I hope this thread isn't too old for you guys to not kill me Is it possibly better for my Trojan Rangers to charge them at mode 3 or 4 on my DPI to get a more "full" charge? Mine seem to peak at 57 volts and float at 52.5 and after reading this, that seems like it isn't getting them to 100%?
It is best to charge Trojan batteries in Mode-2. (Assuming Mode-2 is the designated mode for Trojan batteries for your specific charger, which it most likely is since it is a recently built DPI charger.)

The ultimate determination if a battery is "Fully" charged on not, is not the voltage reached during the charge cycle. Instead, it is the voltage that exists from 12 hours to 24 hours after all charging has ceased and no external discharges have occurred. More correctly, it is the Specific Gravity of the electrolyte during that time frame, but battery voltage closely tracks SG, so voltage is accurate enough for most practical purposes.

SG measurement is also the only practical way of testing the individual cells in the batteries since the conductive straps that connect the cells in series to form a battery are typically not accessible for voltage measurements.

The SG (temperature corrected to 80°F) of the electrolyte (Diluted sulfuric acid) used in Trojan batteries is 1.277 when the battery is fully charged or having a SoC of 100%. The open circuit voltage of a lead-acid cell whose electrolyte has a SG of 1.277 is 2.122V, A 8V battery has 4 cells, so the voltage at 100% SoC is 8.488V and a 48V battery pack has 24 cells, so the 100% SoC voltage is 50.928V.

To hyper-accurately determine how fully your batteries are being charged:
1. After the DPI charger has gone into float charge mode, disconnect charger from cart and disconnect high current cable from main negative terminal to controller and voltage reduce if one is installed.
2. Let batteries sit for at least 12 hours, but no longer than 24 hours.
3. Measure and record the SG of the 24 cells with a temperature corrected hygrometer or refractometer.

If hyper-accuracy isn't needed, a voltmeter can be used to measure the open circuit voltage of the individual batteries and the entire pack.

For routine testing, measuring battery and pack voltages while the battery pack is connected to the controller is accurate enough for all practical purposes.

Attached is a SG and open circuit Voltage vs SoC chart for Trojan batteries.

---------------
FWIW: In the Trojan mode, the absorption stage of a 48V Dpi charge puts out a regulated 57.2V +/- 1.0%, so you probably didn't capture the peak voltage reached before the charger switched to float charge. The easiest way to capture the peak volt reached is to use a DVM with a Peak Hold or Min/Max function.

However, the peak voltage reached during the regular charger cycle doesn't determine how fully the batteries are charge, it is the rate the voltage climbs that determines how fully the batteries are charged.

---------------------
Bottom line: Determine if batteries are being fully charged and if they aren't, look for the cause.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SoC vs Voltage - Trojan Battery.JPG (56.9 KB, 0 views)
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: DPI-48V17A Charger Mode Setting Discrepancy Label vs Manual

Johnnie, do you have any of the SoC information for Deka batteries?

I've quickly learned a ton about flooded batteries from you and the others on this forum, but all the charts I've seen you post are for Trogan, Crown and US Battery.
East Penn Manufacturing (Deka) is popular in my neck of the woods. I ended up with 6 of the GC 15. I'm just hoping maybe you have an awesome chart like you posted above for the Deka line?

Just thought I'd ask
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