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Old 11-29-2020, 12:47 AM   #21
ThreeCW
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

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Originally Posted by CCNorth View Post
Am I right to assume this "loss of pressure" on the left side is why I am unable to get the toe-in correct on that side??
If the tie rod is "loose" and had some "play / movement" in the joint, then it certainly could be a factor in your toe-in adjustment correction problem. But you did mention earlier that these are new tie rods.

With the wheel jacked up, if you can feel play when shaking the wheel side to side, check to see if there is excessive movement in the tie rod. If so, then the tie rod should be replaced.

If everything it tight, then your toe in adjustment problem might be a result of something other than the tie rod. Is anything bent that could be causing your tie rod adjustment problem?
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:52 AM   #22
CCNorth
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

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Originally Posted by ThreeCW View Post
If the tie rod is "loose" and had some "play / movement" in the joint, then it certainly could be a factor in your toe-in adjustment correction problem. But you did mention earlier that these are new tie rods.

With the wheel jacked up, if you can feel play when shaking the wheel side to side, check to see if there is excessive movement in the tie rod. If so, then the tie rod should be replaced.

If everything it tight, then your toe in adjustment problem might be a result of something other than the tie rod. Is anything bent that could be causing your tie rod adjustment problem?
I replaced only the tie rod ends. After I tightened the lug nuts on the left tire I did try to move it side to side and up and down and it had no movement. But, I'll jack it up again and double-check! I was just reading the service manual, again, and it shows the "ball joint" is what is inside the black bellow. It is that joint that is "floppy" when I lift it up. It just falls back down. So, I guess I should feel some movement like you described.

I cannot find anything that is bent. I have measured and measured, looked and looked, used a level and a square and nothing is obvious to me. I suspected a bent spindle but it looks okay to me. I do need to replace those metal bushings because there is a tiny wobble, nothing severe at all.

The service manual shows that the front steering that I have is made by Sona and is not serviceable. I take this to mean that I cannot replace the tie rods. I have to replace the entire assembly. Yikes!

This tire has me baffled.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

If your model has the same steering as the 2015/17 models we have at the golf course then the ball joint and arm is replaceable. I keep a few in stock for this reason and they are also easily bent in a collision. Its not a difficult job either and i am sure you could manage it. Best to to remove the rack and do it on the bench.

Also again if your suspension etc is the same as ours, check the a arms are perfect and not bent at all, also check the clevis (lower shock mount) on top of the king pin as they also easily bend but it cant really be seen without taking them off and placing on a flat surface. Look for doming/crowning around where the king pin thread goes through. One other part that gives tracking and other issues is the steering arms on the spindles themselves. If these are bent upward (common after a front end bump) then it puts the alignment out a fair bit and causes different amounts of thread on the track arms to be obvious. any one of these things can cause either track or camber or both to be out. All the bushes in the a arm, and spring etc need to be good too. I recall you mentioning bushes and some have been replaced, but not all. If i have your issue, i usually replace all parts as a matter of course, but by checking each part, you can decide what actually needs replacing. A good sign to watch for is when you set the track rod ends to equal lengths and put the wheels straight, your steering wheel should be centred. If not, something is bent or worn.

I hope this helps somewhat.

If your model is not the same as ours, just ignore everything i said But in principle, the theory is the same regardless.
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:33 PM   #24
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If your model has the same steering as the 2015/17 models we have at the golf course then the ball joint and arm is replaceable. I keep a few in stock for this reason and they are also easily bent in a collision. Its not a difficult job either and i am sure you could manage it. Best to to remove the rack and do it on the bench.
In my reply to ThreeCW I said my steering assembly was made by Sona because there was no name stamped on the bellows. However, this morning I was looking at some photos I took of the front-end and was able to see a enough letters spelling out Mando! So, it is serviceable and as you said I will be able to replace the ball joint and arm. I'll give it my best shot!

I've never had any sort of collision or bumped into anything but that doesn't matter since I will go ahead and replace both tie rods to eliminate those being an issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
Also again if your suspension etc is the same as ours, check the a arms are perfect and not bent at all, also check the clevis (lower shock mount) on top of the king pin as they also easily bend but it cant really be seen without taking them off and placing on a flat surface. Look for doming/crowning around where the king pin thread goes through. One other part that gives tracking and other issues is the steering arms on the spindles themselves. If these are bent upward (common after a front end bump) then it puts the alignment out a fair bit and causes different amounts of thread on the track arms to be obvious. any one of these things can cause either track or camber or both to be out.
I did look closely at the A-arms when I took them out to replace the bushings. No bends, stress marks or even scratches. They were perfect.

I had read about the clevis causing this problem so I ordered new ones to eliminate that as the problem. Actually, my old ones looked okay but I replaced them anyway.

I did not see any problem with the left spindle when I had it on the bench but I think I'll go ahead and replace it anyway since I may be missing something and it's such an important part.



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Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
All the bushes in the a arm, and spring etc need to be good too. I recall you mentioning bushes and some have been replaced, but not all.
I replaced them all except the two metal bushing in the left spindle. I only ordered 2, rather than 4. I replaced on the right side.
When I order the new left spindle that will be taken care of.


Quote:
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A good sign to watch for is when you set the track rod ends to equal lengths and put the wheels straight, your steering wheel should be centred. If not, something is bent or worn.
I had read this before, I think by you in an old post, and this is exactly what I did. Great advice!! I removed tie rods from the spindle; straightened the wheels by hand and steering wheel was centered. I put the tie rod ends back on 1/2 inch; then had to screw the right about 4 more turns IN until it lined up with the hole in the spindle. BUT, I had to turn the left end OUT about 3 turns to line up with the hole.

Odd thing was when I was tightening up the bolts on tie rod I had to fight with the left side. It was very difficult to hold the top nut in place while tightening the bottom bolt. If my top wrench slipped one tiny bit it made the steering wheel turn. This must be because of the bad tie rod on the left??

Since I can find nothing else that is bent, it must be the spindle causing the problem along with the tie rod? Did I understand all this correctly??
Are you exhausted after reading all this???



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I hope this helps somewhat.
Tremendously helpful!!! Thank you so very much.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCNorth View Post
In my reply to ThreeCW I said my steering assembly was made by Sona because there was no name stamped on the bellows. However, this morning I was looking at some photos I took of the front-end and was able to see a enough letters spelling out Mando! So, it is serviceable and as you said I will be able to replace the ball joint and arm. I'll give it my best shot!

I've never had any sort of collision or bumped into anything but that doesn't matter since I will go ahead and replace both tie rods to eliminate those being an issue.




I did look closely at the A-arms when I took them out to replace the bushings. No bends, stress marks or even scratches. They were perfect.

I had read about the clevis causing this problem so I ordered new ones to eliminate that as the problem. Actually, my old ones looked okay but I replaced them anyway.

I did not see any problem with the left spindle when I had it on the bench but I think I'll go ahead and replace it anyway since I may be missing something and it's such an important part.





I replaced them all except the two metal bushing in the left spindle. I only ordered 2, rather than 4. I replaced on the right side.
When I order the new left spindle that will be taken care of.




I had read this before, I think by you in an old post, and this is exactly what I did. Great advice!! I removed tie rods from the spindle; straightened the wheels by hand and steering wheel was centered. I put the tie rod ends back on 1/2 inch; then had to screw the right about 4 more turns IN until it lined up with the hole in the spindle. BUT, I had to turn the left end OUT about 3 turns to line up with the hole.

Odd thing was when I was tightening up the bolts on tie rod I had to fight with the left side. It was very difficult to hold the top nut in place while tightening the bottom bolt. If my top wrench slipped one tiny bit it made the steering wheel turn. This must be because of the bad tie rod on the left??

Since I can find nothing else that is bent, it must be the spindle causing the problem along with the tie rod? Did I understand all this correctly??
Are you exhausted after reading all this???





Tremendously helpful!!! Thank you so very much.
CCNorth, Would you mind sharing with us,

Where the identifying writing is located?

edit; 'Just read in the Service Manual that the writing is on the Bellows.

Where is a good place to source the replacement parts?

My CCP rides / drives fine just want to get ahead of the surface corrosion on the suspension before it becomes problematic

Thanks
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

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CCNorth, Would you mind sharing with us,

Where the identifying writing is located?

edit; 'Just read in the Service Manual that the writing is on the Bellows.

Where is a good place to source the replacement parts?

My CCP rides / drives fine just want to get ahead of the surface corrosion on the suspension before it becomes problematic

Thanks
I have the 2009-2011 Electric Precedent Maintenance and Service Manual
Manual Number 103472701 Edition Code 0309C1110B

On page 7.5 it shows: "RACK AND PINION DISASSEMBLY
NOTE: Only the rack and pinion manufactured by Mando can be disassembled for repair. A rack and pinion manufactured by Sona is not serviceable and must be replaced as an assembly. They can be identified by the following characteristics:
• Bellows: Mando has their name on bellows; Sona does not
• Tie Rod Drag Link Color: Mando is yellow dichromate; Sona is grey dichromate"

The sponsors of this forum are always a good place to start when searching for parts. I prefer OEM parts not "made to the same standard as OEM" or "replaces OEM part." Both Amazon and E-bay prices can be higher than independent retailers so it pays to check around if your budget is tight.

Sounds like you worry as much about rust as I do. For the past 6 or so years, I have used Total Solution from Abatron.com . It's a rust converter and is the best I've ever used. A little goes a long long way. You paint on a thin layer and repeat in 15 minutes up to 3-4 coats. The great thing is that is turns the rusty area black and blends in with any areas that are already black. You can leave it that way or paint over it. You may think it's expensive but as I said a little goes a long long way. I apply it with a small artist brush. It's very thin and will drip everywhere if you apply too much at once.
The shelf life of the bottle is about 2 years.

Hope this helps you.
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:07 AM   #27
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

Glad to be of help so far. I wonder if you had this cart from new, or bought it used? maybe if used, a previous owner had a bump and replaced obviously damaged parts but missed something critical like the spindles and one may be bent on the steering arm. If you look closely, the arms each side should look parallel to the ground. Sometimes when a front wheel gets bumped, the steering arm will bend up slightly causing tracking issues, sometimes the tracking arm will bend, right by the end of the thread by the locking nut. (not always obvious) this is why i know they can be replaced but did not realise two different brands were available!. Sometimes the small end of the a arm will bend up slightly, again not always obvious. I have made a jig that i can slide an a arm onto to check this. Basically a thick flat bar with two pins that fit perfectly in the arm bushes. If the a arm slides on and off easily its good, if not it goes in the scrap bin and is replaced. Ask me how i know! Publicly hired carts are so abused, that i am repairing front ends on a weekly basis LOL.

Edit

If as you say one steering track arm ball joint is worn and sloppy, that may be a sign of a bump on that side as they usually wear very evenly!

I will say this, in my experience with these carts, you are unlikely to get it perfect, as the build tolerances on these things are pretty wide unlike an auto or other road going vehicle. Remember these are designed for golf courses and slow speeds so not built to a particularly high standard.



It does look like you have taken most precautions and replaced a lot of suspect parts already, so there cant be much more to check. So put your big girl panties on and go for it. (sorry, thats an English expression, not meant to offend LOL).

Just had a thought! is it worth swapping common parts such as the a arms, track rod ends and king pins from one side to the other and see if the problem moves from one side to the other? that will identify the source of any problem. Obviously you cant swap the spindles as they are handed, but you CAN swap the clevis, just the bolts go in the opposite side!

One other thing to double check, is the thread on the top of the king pin can bend slightly and make the clevis sit at the wrong angle. this would affect camber and possibly tracking. Again, not always obvious. The tangs on the bottom of the king pin can also bend slightly and cause issues, hopefully you have checked this and you may notice that when fitted the bolt closes them up a fair bit and makes them tight to remove and replace. New ones you will find fit right on and then close up when you tighten the bolt. Those tangs need to be perfectly aligned with the king pin. if they are really bad, you would struggle to get the bolt in, so fairly obvious usually.

If i think of anything else, i will come back to you.
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Old 12-01-2020, 03:04 AM   #28
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Wow! I hope anyone having front end problems reads this thread. Your information is fantastic!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
Glad to be of help so far. I wonder if you had this cart from new, or bought it used? maybe if used, a previous owner had a bump and replaced obviously damaged parts but missed something critical like the spindles and one may be bent on the steering arm. If you look closely, the arms each side should look parallel to the ground. Sometimes when a front wheel gets bumped, the steering arm will bend up slightly causing tracking issues, sometimes the tracking arm will bend, right by the end of the thread by the locking nut. (not always obvious) this is why i know they can be replaced but did not realise two different brands were available!.
The cart was about 4 years old when I bought it from a local cart dealer. All he told me was that the cart came "from Florida" from a dealer he frequently bought carts from. I knew nothing about golf carts at the time.

The left arm is definitely a little lower than the right, so it is not parallel to the floor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
Sometimes the small end of the a arm will bend up slightly, again not always obvious. I have made a jig that i can slide an a arm onto to check this. Basically a thick flat bar with two pins that fit perfectly in the arm bushes. If the a arm slides on and off easily its good, if not it goes in the scrap bin and is replaced. Ask me how i know! Publicly hired carts are so abused, that i am repairing front ends on a weekly basis LOL.
You see, your info about the small end of the A-arm is invaluable. If I had known this great tip I would have looked at the arms much more closely. The jig is a brillant idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
If as you say one steering track arm ball joint is worn and sloppy, that may be a sign of a bump on that side as they usually wear very evenly!
Another brilliant statement. I never thought about the fact they would wear evenly. That loose arm is a red flag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
I will say this, in my experience with these carts, you are unlikely to get it perfect, as the build tolerances on these things are pretty wide unlike an auto or other road going vehicle. Remember these are designed for golf courses and slow speeds so not built to a particularly high standard.
I understand and it's a great reminder. I do tend to be a perfectionist, about some things. LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
It does look like you have taken most precautions and replaced a lot of suspect parts already, so there cant be much more to check. So put your big girl panties on and go for it. (sorry, thats an English expression, not meant to offend LOL).
That's funny and no offense taken.
I decided to order a whole new steering assembly rather than replacing only the inner joints. Go big or go home is my motto in this case. LOL. Also, new shocks. So, the only parts that I have NOT replaced will be the A-arms, right spindle, wheel hubs and leaf spring. If the new steering assemble and left spindle do not correct the problem I'll go further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
Just had a thought! is it worth swapping common parts such as the a arms, track rod ends and king pins from one side to the other and see if the problem moves from one side to the other? that will identify the source of any problem. Obviously you cant swap the spindles as they are handed, but you CAN swap the clevis, just the bolts go in the opposite side!
Great idea!! I think at this point I'll wait to try that since my new parts should arrive in a few days. Again, if it were earlier in the repair it would have been the thing to try! At this point all I could swap would be the A-arms since the king pins, washers, clevis and bushings are all new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
One other thing to double check, is the thread on the top of the king pin can bend slightly and make the clevis sit at the wrong angle. this would affect camber and possibly tracking. Again, not always obvious. The tangs on the bottom of the king pin can also bend slightly and cause issues, hopefully you have checked this and you may notice that when fitted the bolt closes them up a fair bit and makes them tight to remove and replace. New ones you will find fit right on and then close up when you tighten the bolt. Those tangs need to be perfectly aligned with the king pin. if they are really bad, you would struggle to get the bolt in, so fairly obvious usually.
King pins are new. Yes, they did fit perfectly and closed up as you described, thank goodness!

Thank you!! You are a wealth of knowledge and so kind to take your valuable time to help me. I appreciate it more than you can know!!
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Old 12-01-2020, 03:42 AM   #29
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

LOL. I have not owned a cart for over ten years now! i had a custom build cart company in the UK, but specialised in EZGO, now i work at golf courses and see various brands. I like to think my knowledge can pass on to others to help them as i learnt all i know from experience, not books etc. I am only too glad to help.

Never be afraid to PM me if you think i can help in the future.

You never know, i may get my first sticky with this one LOL.

Oh, and keep the old rack, repair it later ready as a spare. I do this regularly too.
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: Alignment Idiot Award - I Deserve It

With all this knowledge floating around, it is encouraging me to look deeper into the "it's a bit loose" front end on my cart!

Thanks for sharing this information.
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