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Old 05-13-2013, 08:34 AM   #11
scottyb
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

It sounds to me like your batteries are reaching the end of their useful life. If you have recently added taller tires that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
You will need a bigger controller, solenoid, and cables to the kind of performance you are looking for.
Also consider this might be a good time to upgrade to a 42v system for additional torque and speed.
The 7th battery fits neatly under the driver's seat and the QE charger is junk, needing to be replaced sooner or later.
Food for thought.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:04 AM   #12
JohnnieB
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

I definitely agree with Scotty, your batteries are reaching the end of their useful life; And that the PW-QE charger isn't one I would choose to buy.

However, I got the impression you had to choose between upgrading the controller, solenoid and cables or replacing the batteries, and was trying to determine which to do first due to financial restrictions, or whatever.

Replacing everything listed above is inevitable due to the taller than stock tire height, but there is a possibility you might delay replacing the batteries until later if some of the storage capacity they have lost through the natural aging process, can be recovered.

You will get neither the performance nor the run-time that a new set of batteries will give you, but you might be able to put off buying new batteries for a few months if the performance and run-time you manage to squeeze out of them is acceptable for the time being.

If you replace the batteries only, you are more or less limited to a 36V system, but if you replace the controller and solenoid with ones the will operate over the 36V to 48V range, you will have the choice of going to 42V or 48V when you replace the batteries.

Replacing the six 6V batteries with six 8V batteries will give you 48V and you will have more torque and speed, but about the same run-time as a 36V battery pack.
Replacing the six 6V batteries with seven 6V batteries (as mentioned there is space for the seventh battery under the driver seat) for a 42V system, won't give you as much of an increase in torque and speed as going to a 48V system but you'll get some of both and you will have a longer run-time.
Replacing the six 6V batteries with eight 6V batteries will give you more speed, torque and run-time, but it is difficult to shoehorn eight batteries under the seat and putting two in the bag well may not be a viable option.

----------
To answer your battery charging questions.

The best way to equalize the batteries is to charge them individually with a 6V charger. Charging them in closely matched pairs with a 12V would be second best.

What happens with the regular 36V charger is that it shuts off when the average on-charge voltage reaches about 45V, so the batteries with the lower voltages tend to be undercharged and the imbalance between batteries progressively gets worse.

Once the battery voltages are as closely matched as they will get, charging them in series with a 36V charger will charge them, more or less, equally.

Of course, charging them with the 36V charger doesn't hurt them any more than the have already been hurt, but it doesn't help the imbalance problem.

Basically, charger the pack with the 36V charger as needed to replace the amps used while driving and give the lower voltage batteries extra charging with the 6V charger as time between the 36V charges allows.

---------
Hope this helps you with your decision about what to do first.

BTW: Cables should be replaced now, no matter which way you go on the rest. At least 4Ga and replace all 10 of them.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
I definitely agree with Scotty, your batteries are reaching the end of their useful life; And that the PW-QE charger isn't one I would choose to buy.

However, I got the impression you had to choose between upgrading the controller, solenoid and cables or replacing the batteries, and was trying to determine which to do first due to financial restrictions, or whatever.

Replacing everything listed above is inevitable due to the taller than stock tire height, but there is a possibility you might delay replacing the batteries until later if some of the storage capacity they have lost through the natural aging process, can be recovered.

You will get neither the performance nor the run-time that a new set of batteries will give you, but you might be able to put off buying new batteries for a few months if the performance and run-time you manage to squeeze out of them is acceptable for the time being.

If you replace the batteries only, you are more or less limited to a 36V system, but if you replace the controller and solenoid with ones the will operate over the 36V to 48V range, you will have the choice of going to 42V or 48V when you replace the batteries.

Replacing the six 6V batteries with six 8V batteries will give you 48V and you will have more torque and speed, but about the same run-time as a 36V battery pack.
Replacing the six 6V batteries with seven 6V batteries (as mentioned there is space for the seventh battery under the driver seat) for a 42V system, won't give you as much of an increase in torque and speed as going to a 48V system but you'll get some of both and you will have a longer run-time.
Replacing the six 6V batteries with eight 6V batteries will give you more speed, torque and run-time, but it is difficult to shoehorn eight batteries under the seat and putting two in the bag well may not be a viable option.

----------
To answer your battery charging questions.

The best way to equalize the batteries is to charge them individually with a 6V charger. Charging them in closely matched pairs with a 12V would be second best.

What happens with the regular 36V charger is that it shuts off when the average on-charge voltage reaches about 45V, so the batteries with the lower voltages tend to be undercharged and the imbalance between batteries progressively gets worse.

Once the battery voltages are as closely matched as they will get, charging them in series with a 36V charger will charge them, more or less, equally.

Of course, charging them with the 36V charger doesn't hurt them any more than the have already been hurt, but it doesn't help the imbalance problem.

Basically, charger the pack with the 36V charger as needed to replace the amps used while driving and give the lower voltage batteries extra charging with the 6V charger as time between the 36V charges allows.

---------
Hope this helps you with your decision about what to do first.

BTW: Cables should be replaced now, no matter which way you go on the rest. At least 4Ga and replace all 10 of them.


I've got a similar situation - '01 ezgo series cart - - all original factory guts - but have a lift, rear seating, 22" tires . . . top speed about 12mph much slower up hill . Wouldn't mind adding a stereo but afraid it's going to kill my run time (6v - t-105's from 12/2011) I bought cart used. looks like 2ga wire connecting batteries but 4ga going to the controller (nice funnel effect).

I love the torque (me and 3 kids on rocky hill country terrain just plows through) but burns through the juice and wouldn't mind more speed.

So let me get all this straight....
I can get starting improving some of this ride by?:

~maybe upgrade controller and solenoid (and ditch the last two 4ga wires)
~I can also add 1 battery for some improvement or 2 (but kinda ugly) for even more

thought?
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougs_huntingcart View Post
I've got a similar situation - '01 ezgo series cart - - all original factory guts - but have a lift, rear seating, 22" tires . . . top speed about 12mph much slower up hill . Wouldn't mind adding a stereo but afraid it's going to kill my run time (6v - t-105's from 12/2011) I bought cart used. looks like 2ga wire connecting batteries but 4ga going to the controller (nice funnel effect).

I love the torque (me and 3 kids on rocky hill country terrain just plows through) but burns through the juice and wouldn't mind more speed.

So let me get all this straight....
I can get starting improving some of this ride by?:

~maybe upgrade controller and solenoid (and ditch the last two 4ga wires)
~I can also add 1 battery for some improvement or 2 (but kinda ugly) for even more

thought?
We are talking about PDS carts, but much of it applies to Series carts.

Unlike the sepex motors in PDS carts, every amp of current flows through every cable and the contacts in the solenoid and F/R switch in a series cart (series wound motor), so they all have to have equal or better amp capacity. (Performance is limited by the ampacity of the weakest component)

Motor RPM is not limited by the controller, so speed is determined by battery pack voltage and final drive ratio.
With a 36V battery pack, stock controller, differential gears, standard speed motor and stock tire height, the speed of a series cart is about 13MPH.
With 22" tires, it should be cruising at about 16MPH, but the torque is reduced by about 20%, so you are losing some voltage to the motor someplace if you aren't reaching about 16MPH on 22" tires.
All 13 of the high current cables should be at least 4Ga, or heavier.
The stock controller is only 275A, so it should be upped to at least 400A to turn the tall tires.
The solenoid and F/R assembly will also have to be upgraded to handle the higher amps.

That will regain the torque lost by the tall tires and should get you up to 16MPH. (But it will still slow down on hills, just not as much)
To go faster, you have to up the battery pack voltage, which oddly enough, reduces the number of amps flowing through the cables and contacts.

Or you can further alter the final drive ratio with different differential gears, or even taller tires, but either of those calls for even more amps.

Also, you could install a high-speed motor.

Getting into the mid to upper 20's with a sepex motor is relatively easy, but doing so with a series motor can get mighty expensive.

Basically, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougs_huntingcart View Post
Wouldn't mind adding a stereo but afraid it's going to kill my run time
Just a thought, go with six 8V batteries for 48V to power the cart and add a 12V in the space under the driver seat to power the accessories.

A 48V pack made up of six 170AH 8V batteries will have roughly the same run-time as a stock 36V (225AH) battery pack. Using 190AH 8V batteries will give you a longer run-time.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Ok. Thats a lot of information to digest. Ha. But extremely helpful. I had a bigger charger that I could get my hands on and charged most of them up to 7.4 volts but then they all pretty much just stopped charging.

After I was done with each one, I plugged the pack back up to the QE and each of them were charging at about 6.7 to 6.8 except for one. It was all the way up to 7.8 and thats not even one of them that I charged with the individual charger. So I wonder if everytime i plug the pack up if that one is getting fried. I dont know.

Yeah Im kinda on a budget right now (about the cost of a new set of batteries) is all I can afford. Sounds like i might just wait on the controller and get ready for the new batteries. Oh well. Cant have it all haha. Maybe...... if I can slide it past the wife. I would really like to go 42 volts and the DCX 400. What would all that cost with new charger? Is a 42 volt hard to come by for my set up?
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

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Originally Posted by m.childers97 View Post
1. Ok. Thats a lot of information to digest. Ha. But extremely helpful. I had a bigger charger that I could get my hands on and charged most of them up to 7.4 volts but then they all pretty much just stopped charging.

2. After I was done with each one, I plugged the pack back up to the QE and each of them were charging at about 6.7 to 6.8 except for one. It was all the way up to 7.8 and thats not even one of them that I charged with the individual charger. So I wonder if everytime i plug the pack up if that one is getting fried. I dont know.

3. Yeah Im kinda on a budget right now (about the cost of a new set of batteries) is all I can afford. Sounds like i might just wait on the controller and get ready for the new batteries. Oh well. Cant have it all haha. Maybe...... if I can slide it past the wife. I would really like to go 42 volts and the DCX 400. What would all that cost with new charger? Is a 42 volt hard to come by for my set up?
1. Charge them as high as they will go a few more times and they may start climbing higher.
Getting them to climb higher is the objective.

2. No, it is the other way around, the one climbing to an on-charge voltage of 7.8V is keeping the other ones from being as fully charged as they would be if the batteries were in better balance.

Here is the recommended charge profile for Trojan T-105 batteries.
Note that the on-charge voltage goes into the 2.45VPC to 2.79VPC (Volts per Cell) range at the end of the charge cycle. For a 3 cell battery (6V) that is 7.35V to 8.37V, so 7.8V is well within the acceptable range.

3. Scotty has the DCX400PDS and 200A solenoid kit on sale at the moment. http://www.cartsunlimited.net/Custom_Options.html
And here is the 42V charger I use: http://www.cartsunlimited.net/48v_Battery_Charger.html

I have always recommended getting the highest Amp-Hour batteries you can afford and still do, but by going from 36V to 42V, you will be lowering the Amp demand on the battery pack by 16.7% so you can use economy grade batteries (lower Amp-Hour rating) and still get about the same run-time and life expectancy as you would from the standard 36V 225AH battery pack.

----------
Tall tires are like pretty women, they look nice, but they sure can get expensive.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Haha no doubt on the tall tires. I will keep giving them a charge over the next few days. I see the max amps to charge a t105 is 45 amps. Is it OK to charge them with that many amps with the battery already having some charge on it ?? Just don't want to mess them up.

Sorry for all the questions. I want to learn all I can about these electric carts.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

The max charge rate on the chart I posted is 13% of the Amp-Hour rating at the 20 hour rate, or 29.25A for a 225AH battery like the T-105.

45A is a 20% charge rate for a 225AH battery, so it is still in the ballpark, but I'd use it judiciously.
Keep an eye on the battery temperature and terminate the charge if it climbs above 120°F.
Keep an eye on the electrolyte levels and don't let the plates get exposed (Fill with distilled water only)

Cart batteries should never be discharge more than 50%, so they are always being charged with some charge on them.
What is being done is deliberately "Overcharging" the batteries in hopes of improving their ability to charge to their full storage capacity, which has diminished over time through sulfation of the plates (the natural aging process).

Technically, the at-rest voltage (voltage reading 12 hours after charge terminates) is exactly the same for a 10AH battery, a 100AH battery, a 1000AH or any AH lead-acid battery. Because the batteries were being charged in series and some of the batteries had a higher on-charge voltage than the others, the batteries with the lower voltages did not get, and are not getting, charged to their maximum storage capacity.

Also technically, the batteries are not being "Overcharged" since they are not displaying an at-rest voltage of 2.122VPC (6.37V for a 6V battery)

While the storage capacity lost through the aging process is lost forever, there is some available storage capacity not being obtained due to the imbalance in the voltages within the battery pack. Making that unused storage capacity useable is what is being done, or at least attempted.

------------
When you get new batteries, fully charge them in series before first use.
Measure the individual at-rest voltages and if any vary more than 0.1V of the others, give the low ones some extra time on charge using a 6V charger.

Every other week or so, initiate a charge cycle or two on the pack when it is fully charged.
Every other month or so, check the individual battery voltages and if any vary more than 0.1V, give the low ones a boost with the 6V charger.

BTW - It takes several charge/discharge cycles for new batteries to reach there full storage capacity.
Here is how to break them in: http://www.cartsunlimited.net/Batter...n_Methods.html
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alltrax Conroller vs New Batteries

Ok. Thanks again JohnnieB. I will post back in a few days an let you know what I find out!
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