2003 PDS Short Run time, wont go up hill after 10 min

[Hi3cho]

So I posted this in another thread thinking it was the same issue but I am thinking the issues may be a little bit different.

I recently picked up a 2003 EZGO PDS cart. It has a 6inch lift kit with 23 inch tires. The guy I bought it from said the batteries are from 2015. There are 5 US Batteries and 1 Trojan. The Trojan looks the oldest. When I went to pick it up, he took me for a short ride up and down hills and it ran fine. I trailered it home and the batteries bounced around a little bit. We took a short ride, maybe a mile or so. It had trouble getting up my drive way, a decent incline. I figured it just may have not had a full charge. The next day after a full 12 hours charging, the cart still only lasts about a mile or so and doesn't make it up the drive way.

Biphase seemed to think it was due to being lifted with bigger tires and overheating the controller. I attempted to put it in self test mode, however the reverse alarm has been disabled so it does not beep. I need to figure out how they disabled the reverse alarm to actually test it.

I did take voltage ratings off of the batteries after a full day of charging. The Trojan was at 6.4V which was the first in the series. The rest of the US batteries all read ~5.8V. I thought potentially from the ride home, I may have done something to the battery cables, so I ordered a 2 gauge set that should help with the thermal shutdown if that is the issue. Last night I tried to 12v charge two batteries at a time and could not get either of the two pairs I charged to go over 12v (all water levels are fine). I am kind of stumped because I can't imagine the batteries are bad after 3 years, and all 5 at a time at that. I didn't know the seller personally but seemed like a stand up guy but he could have been lying or mistaken.

At this point do I try to do the battery refresh with the Epsom salt, do I try to rearrange the series? The Trojan did boil over and lose some waters after charging for 24 hours. would that because its not sensing a full charge due to the other batteries and over charging the Trojan?

Where is the actual alarm for reverse, I know the wire should be attached to the forward reverse toggle but I pulled it from the dash and didn't see it. I figure I should be able to chase the wires from the actual buzzer.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to give the full story.

[BobBoyce]

The seller probably kept those batteries in a constant state of undercharge, leading to sulphation and reduced capacity. That Trojan battery will end up with a capacity like the rest of them if you keep it in that pack. It's overcharging because the others are not coming up to voltage. How you treat batteries, even brand new batteries, have more of an impact than simply battery age. The oversized tires are aggravating the low battery situation. It takes a lot more battery power to turn larger rear tires.

Batteries need to be matched when purchased, preferred to buy all with the same date code so that they are all as close as possible to one another in chemistry and capacity. Plates from batteries in differing batches may have differences in the chemistry of the lead if those plates are from different batches as well. If I'm buying a bank of batteries fom a supplier for a solar power installation, I specify that all batteries in the set are of the exact same manufacture date, or don't bother sending them, they will be refused. I make it a condition of my purchase. If a supplier cannot handle that, I will buy from another supplier that agrees to my terms. Sometimes it delays delivery, because the supplier has to wait for a shipment of identical date code batteries from the manufacturer, but it is well worth it in the long run. We prefer to buy batteries that are intended to last for 15 years or more.

Now, back to your issue... You may want to consider going lithium. If you are handy, you may be able to cobble together a basic lithium pack for what it would cost you to buy a new set of lead/acid batteries. The modules can be bought for under $600 from a seller on eBay and another seller on ebay can provide a simple BMS for under $50, with a $10 or so relay from a third seller to control the charger.

Bob

[Hi3cho]

so the batteries are toast? Should I try to bring them back with the Epsom salt trick. If it would get me running so I can do some more research on the lithium or find a deal on some FLA batteries. I really don't want to turn in batteries if they still savable. One other note is the US Batteries seem to have nothing on the plates and look clean. The Trojan however does have some build up on the plates. Still seems weird that all 5 batteries are no good and the older battery is working.

For the lithium ion set up. When you say module for $600 is that the battery pack? Or do you need to upgrade the controller as well. Most setups I saw in a thread mentioned 48V set ups in PDS carts, can I run 48v or would that require a motor/controller change. I am pretty handy and think I could handle it, however I am not very familiar with the whole topic as of now.

[BobBoyce]

The epsoms salt trick is just that, a trick. You might see some change in voltage, but you'll be ending the life of those batteries very quickly.

Some marketing companies are getting rich selling a "battery rejuvination" technique that is so much better...

Flush the sediment out of the bottoms of the cells by inverting/shaking/rinsing out with water. Repeat until no more sediment comes out.

Chemically clean the plates with a baking soda/water solution, and let the battery sit overnight in a warm area to allow the baking soda to clean the plates.

Flush the cells well with tap water again, shaking and inverting to remove sediment again.

Flush one final time, thoroughly, with distilled water.

Refill with brand new battery acid.

Charge and break in as if new...

YMMV dependng on the condition of the plates, but it is more sound than adding epsom salts to the existing chemistry.

The easiest lithium pack to set up is by buying Nissan Leaf EV battery modules. There is a seller on eBay that sells 7 modules for $570 with free shipping, and he drops the price to $530 regularly. Yes, you will need a new controller to handle the higher voltage, unless you already have a controller than can do that.

[BobBoyce]

I tend to stay too busy to bother with battery rejuvination myself. I bought the course on that years ago, and it's not what I prefer to spend my time working on. I have a friend in Central NC that has a retail battery business, and that is how he makes a living. I buy new batteries through him, but I don't have time to waste on doing what he does. I invented a battery desulphating technology years ago. If a desulphation session does not handle a battery issue for me, I just replace the batteries with new.

I'm not going to get into details here, because it is a conflict of interest for me. I invent products for market, but I do not get involved in the marketing of products that I've invented. I leave that to the manufacturers and resellers.

Bob

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Hi3cho

Where is the actual alarm for reverse, I know the wire should be attached to the forward reverse toggle but I pulled it from the dash and didn't see it. I figure I should be able to chase the wires from the actual buzzer.

The beeper is not connected to the F/R rocker switch. The red wire (B+) is connected the the battery side large terminal on the solenoid and the Grn/Blk wire (B-) is attached to J1 Pin-10 on the controller. The beeper is used for several things in addition to sounding when in reverse.

It is located under the front cowl and is mounted to the left side of the passenger side glove box. You can see it by looking under the cowl from the front of the cart. You can access it by removing the keyswitch panel.

[bubba4dad]

Originally Posted by BobBoyce

Now, back to your issue... You may want to consider going lithium. If you are handy, you may be able to cobble together a basic lithium pack for what it would cost you to buy a new set of lead/acid batteries. The modules can be bought for under $600 from a seller on eBay and another seller on ebay can provide a simple BMS for under $50, with a $10 or so relay from a third seller to control the charger.

Bob

Bob - I found them on ebay right now for $404 delivered. 7 x Nissan Leaf Battery Module 7.6V 35-40Ah

These are refurbished Nissan Leaf Gen 1 battery pack modules. Guaranteed and tested.

You are buying a refurbished cell, so these can be used for off-road applications like golf carts, or in a lab for electronics power applications. BY PURCHASING YOU ACCEPT ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY FOR THESE CELLS.

7.6V nominal

Cells are at 30% state of charge for shipping.

Measured capacity is between 35Ah and 40Ah. This is measured at a 50A discharge rate between 4.1 and 3.0V. Compare that to other testing methods and you will find that these are very good modules with plenty of capacity and cycles remaining (multiple thousands of cycles if taken care of).

Capable of 100+ amps continuous.

We have Left and Right hand modules (Positive terminal on the left, or Positive terminal on the right) terminal arrangement. You will get whichever we grab unless you specify in an email or ebay message immediately after ordering.

These are great for off-road applications like golf carts or lab applications like a DC supply with low ripple.

You are responsible for figuring out how to charge them. They are LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2 chemistry so they can NOT be charged with a regular battery charger. You must use a charger made for this type of Lithium cell.


My questions are:
1.) Does this sound legit and a good deal?
2.) How do you charge them?
3.) Is it typical for them to be at 30% charge to ship?
4.) Do they give you the same drive time as regular batteries?

[Hi3cho]

Originally Posted by BobBoyce

The epsoms salt trick is just that, a trick. You might see some change in voltage, but you'll be ending the life of those batteries very quickly.

Some marketing companies are getting rich selling a "battery rejuvination" technique that is so much better...

Flush the sediment out of the bottoms of the cells by inverting/shaking/rinsing out with water. Repeat until no more sediment comes out.

Chemically clean the plates with a baking soda/water solution, and let the battery sit overnight in a warm area to allow the baking soda to clean the plates.

Flush the cells well with tap water again, shaking and inverting to remove sediment again.

Flush one final time, thoroughly, with distilled water.

Refill with brand new battery acid.

Charge and break in as if new...

YMMV dependng on the condition of the plates, but it is more sound than adding epsom salts to the existing chemistry.

The easiest lithium pack to set up is by buying Nissan Leaf EV battery modules. There is a seller on eBay that sells 7 modules for $570 with free shipping, and he drops the price to $530 regularly. Yes, you will need a new controller to handle the higher voltage, unless you already have a controller than can do that.

Thank you for the information, I guess I will give cleaning out the batteries a try. I don't really know what else to do at this point. I may just buy some new batteries and be done with. I am intrigued by the lithium but I am not sure I want to wait for them. I still do not see the eBay seller you are referencing, I am pretty good at finding stuff usually but do not see that. I see that each module is 7.6. Does that mean I could use 5 of them totaling 38 volts to run my 36v setup?

[Hi3cho]

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

The beeper is not connected to the F/R rocker switch. The red wire (B+) is connected the the battery side large terminal on the solenoid and the Grn/Blk wire (B-) is attached to J1 Pin-10 on the controller. The beeper is used for several things in addition to sounding when in reverse.

It is located under the front cowl and is mounted to the left side of the passenger side glove box. You can see it by looking under the cowl from the front of the cart. You can access it by removing the keyswitch panel.

Got it, Thanks. I will take a look when I get home. I got that information from a few threads who were trying to get rid of the buzzer. When I pulled the key plate off last night, I did not see anything not attached, so that makes sense why.

[BobBoyce]

Originally Posted by Hi3cho

Thank you for the information, I guess I will give cleaning out the batteries a try. I don't really know what else to do at this point. I may just buy some new batteries and be done with. I am intrigued by the lithium but I am not sure I want to wait for them. I still do not see the eBay seller you are referencing, I am pretty good at finding stuff usually but do not see that. I see that each module is 7.6. Does that mean I could use 5 of them totaling 38 volts to run my 36v setup?

Yes, but keep in mind that you will need a BMS that will work with the number of cells that you choose. 5 modules is 20 cells wired 10S2P, which to the BMS is 10 cells.