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Old 06-25-2020, 09:05 PM   #11
trig123
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Do one thing . Remove that coil from engine where you can swap the wires. The coil does not need to be grounded so you can just let it lay on top of engine for this test.

See if it changes from one cylinder to the other side when you do this. These coils fire both wires at the same time. This test maybe will tell us if your coil or wire is bad.
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:25 AM   #12
pacman377
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Ok thanks. I'll try that and see what happens and get back with you.
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Old 06-26-2020, 03:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Ok i swapped the wires the passenger side of the manifold was still cold. So i put another set of new plugs in it and bam shes running like a top.
Get ready to run it back to my brother and it dies out like I was previously. Swapped the old coil for the new one we had same thing. Now I'm waiting to let it cool and see what side of the manifold is hot and cold. Also both plugs are black and sooty. Could be from it running like crap not sure.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Your issue may be different than mine but it sounds very familiar. I chased the spark issue for way too long. New after market coil, a used OEM coil, new plugs, test the pulser, chased wires, compression check, adjusted valves the whole nine yards. Sometimes it seemed like only one plug was firing and running on a single cylinder. Sometimes It would run until it got warm and then is started to bog and die. I took off the intake manifold and noticed it was puffing gas back out of the carb. In the end, it turned out to be a bad muffler. I think it rusted inside and then collapsed causing a blockage. I unbolted the muffler from the manifold to leave a gap and then ran the engine. It was loud as hell but it ran like a champ. Put on a new muffler and its great ever since. (Almost 2 years now) May or may not be your issue but may be worth a check.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Ok thanks i will try that. I have noticed some gas coming out of the carb with the air box off.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:07 AM   #16
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacman377 View Post
Ok thanks i will try that. I have noticed some gas coming out of the carb with the air box off.
Sounds like maybe its not an Electrical issue. Did you do a spark test yet? If not, you need to confirm if you have spark at both plugs before doing the next test. Incidentally, this type of coil, usually needs both plugs grounded. Dont try a spark test without both plugs touching the block! I always leave one screwed in while testing the other.

Is there any oily residue inside the air filter box?

You say you have compression, but this can be misleading in this instance.

I am going to sound like a broken record here. Gas coming out of the carb mouth suggests inlet valve issues. Remove the valve cover ( the black plastic cover on the top of the engine ) by undoing six 10mm headed bolts and check the valve lash, particularly on the middle two valves. you need to turn the clutch by hand until the heel (lowest part) of the cam is under the rocker and check for a gap. this should be 4 thou". try wobbling the rocker up and down. If no movement, you need to first set the gap. No need for special tools, just a spanner (10mm) i think. a suitable screwdriver and feeler gauges. Don't worry if you have no gauges, simply loosen the locknut, wind the adjuster screw anticlockwise a turn or so so that you have a gap and the rocker can wobble freely up and down. Now wind the adjuster back in till the rocker just touches the heel of the cam then undo exactly 1/4 turn and lock the nut. do this to all four rockers. this gives you roughly 4-5 thou. Good enough for testing. In fact, if you have wear on the rocker heels, this is better than using gauges as it compensates for the wear and is more accurate. If you find you have a few more threads now showing above the inner two adjuster lock nuts than the outer two, It suggests worn valve heads and possibly needing replacement inlet valves.
I am not saying this is definitely your problem, but is something that should be checked regularly anyway. these engines are known for worn valves causing non firing or lack of power.

Now put cover back on and test.

While you have the cover off, take a picture of the adjusters so we can see how much thread is above the lock nuts.

(EDIT)Intermittent spark at both plugs is usually the little plastic connector for the coil low tension side being corroded or worn, Intermittent spark on only one plug is usually either the spark plug, the HT lead, or the coil itself breaking down.(EDIT)

FYI. Your engine firing up after fitting new plugs is possibly because the old plugs are fouled with carbon, due to burning oil vapour entering the airbox from the PCV valve. this is caused by excessive crankcase pressure from a leaky inlet valve. The carbon tracks the spark away from the electrodes.

Good luck, lets hope we find the issue.
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Old 06-29-2020, 05:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

1 yes I have a good spark at each plug.
2 yes there was some oil in the filter box when we started.
3 compression was good right around 180 i believe.
4. Just because I was running out of ideas I have checked and set the valve lash to .004 and verified no valves were sticking.
Up to this point it still runs like crap with no power. I havent been able to check the
muffler yet like someone mentioned.
5. It is not intermittent spark at both plugs. When I crank it one side of the manifold will heat up, the other will not. The side that wont heat up will have a carbon fouled plug. but when I spark check it still will have fire. also if I disconnect that boot from that plug it will not run.
6 I can also try to disconnect the pcv for a bit and see if a difference is made with with that.
Thanks for the information and ill get back as soon as ive had time to work on it. Might be a couple of days.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

No worries on not getting back for a few days, i pop in most week days!

So, we have a bit more info. You always have spark at both plugs, you seem to have good compression, but spitting gas back through the carb. Also we have oil in the airbox. we have a cold side on the exhaust manifold after running. We have swapped coil leads over but the problem stays on the same side. we can conclude from this that fire is not a problem, the issue is in one cylinder of the engine not burning. as there is only a single carb feeding fuel, we should be able to rule that out. The exhaust after the manifold is common to both cylinders so we should be able to rule that out too. (may be worth unbolting the exhaust from the manifold to confirm that as suggested previously but i have my doubts. I am still leaning toward inlet valve issues due to the spitting fuel from the carb and presence of oil in the airbox.

Lets get back to basics. Three thing are needed for the engine to run
1: fuel
2: compression
3: fire
One of these is missing. we assume we have fuel as both plugs are getting dirty/wet?
we also assume we have good compression, as you have stated around 180psi?
you say we have fire as both plugs are sparking.

As we have concluded, the issue is mainly with one cylinder. So we need to find the missing part of the puzzle. we can see a spark with the plug out, but how do we know we have spark when the plug is in the head? I have a handy tool that looks like a spark plug, but has a glass top instead of ceramic. I can run the engine and look through to see if i have fire (Its called a "colortune" and shows the burn color in the head for tuning mixture) You probably dont have access to one of these so lets assume that the plug is firing ok? but is it? maybe the plugs are breaking down under compression. Do you have a set of brand new plugs available, not cleaned up old ones. Under certain conditions a plug can get a build up of carbon inside on the insulation and allow the spark to track to ground under compression. This may be your issue. Try a new set of plugs and see how long before it starts to bog down again. Where does this carbon come from? Oil being burned in the cylinder will cause this build up of carbon. Where does this oil come from? oil pressure/vapour from the PCV valve, oil blow by past the rings or leaking valve stem seals are the main three that come to mind. If your engine is not blowing excess oil smoke from the exhaust, then the culprit is likely to be from the PCV valve. What causes this? A PCV valve relies on vacuum from the intake to draw excess pressure/vapour from the crankcase but in some circumstances we get higher than usual crankcase pressure due to either worn piston ring blow by or leaking inlet valves. This then forces too much oil vapour into the air filter and thus the carb. This could be where oil is maybe entering the head and depositing carbon onto the plug? Therefore you may see good compression, but no fire, as the plug is tracking to ground. It is a shame you have not taken a picture of the rocker adjusters as it would give us something to either confirm or eliminate a possible cause of your problem.

These engines are very reliable under most circumstances and do not usually give problems. but the valve issue is well known with these. particularly on the older pre MCI ones with a cast iron manifold, which i believe is what we have here. Its a wasted spark ignition system so again, very simple. If there is only one plug actually firing, then its either one side of the coil breaking down, (rare) or the plug or plug lead failing. The simple one piece carb is common to both cylinders so if that is faulty it will affect both cylinders not just one. Your cold manifold tells us that there is no burn in that cylinder, so lets find out why. Obviously i do not know your skill level with small engines, so i try to explain my train of thoughts as i go, so please do not think i am being condescending toward you!
I am not trying to teach granny to suck egg's here LOL, just trying to boil things down to find your problem.
Having worked with these engines for over thirty years, i hope to be able to find your problem eventually even though i am several thousand miles away! Once we can see how much adjustment has been made to your valve rockers we can move on with the diagnosis.
I hope we can conclude this quickly and get you back up and running soon.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:26 PM   #19
pacman377
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Ok sorry I've been so slow to respond the past several days have been quiet busy.
1. With a fresh set of plugs it takes only a couple of minutes to have the one plug very sooty.
2. I have some pictures of the valve lash lock nuts for you.
3. I loosened the muffler from the manifold and ran it both sides of the manifold where hot during this. However the motor was still gutless just like before i loosened the muffler from the manifold.
4. I dont mind you explaining your thought process its more i can learn.
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: 03 Workhorse 800

Bump
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