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Old 06-17-2022, 01:20 AM   #271
Cartmaster
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

As Trig already knows, I am trying to find simple ways to bench test certain components in the four stroke ignition system and we all know that the igniter is the biggest problem in testing. I have been working on a project with limited time over the last couple of weeks and feel that I am pretty close to achieving something. We all understand that the igniter can be wired up to the coil, battery etc, but the stumbling block is emulating the pulser, We can build a spinning wheel with an actual pulser driven by a small electric motor and I have proved this works fine, but most people are looking for a simple test without expensive or bulky equipment that most do not have access to. I have built a few electronic pulse generators both sine wave, square wave and half wave but cannot seem to get it right. I can get a single spark similar to some situations in the cart, but cannot seem to fire the igniter with a continuous regular output to the coil. I think one problem is duplicating the shape of the signal put out by the pulser, which I think i am close to with an AC 1/2 sine wave, but the igniter seems to be more reactive to the square wave. I think the reason for this may be the lapse of time is not long enough between pulses on the 1/2 sine wave and the rate of rise/fall of the ramp. What i think i need is a simple circuit or device to give a long delay between the pulses compared to the duration of the pulse.

I will figure this out but need better knowledge and time. Both things i dont have a lot of.

Electronics is a bit of a guessing game for me nowadays. I used to build stuff in my younger days, but circuit design is not my forte!

Maybe It is simple and i just cannot see it?

I am not giving up, i will carry on trying to learn more and applying what i learn to this project.

If anyone has any ideas, please chip in with suggestions.

If only we knew how the igniter interprets the signal from the pulser? does it need to see the delay between pulses? does it react to the rise or the fall of the pulse?

What I really need is someone with a scope and a pre MCI cart to get some real life readings from. Maybe also an MCI so we can understand the differences in these ignition systems.

I am pretty sure the earlier pre MCI is a DC TCI igniter, but not sure on the MCI.

Or maybe I am just thinking too hard and the answer is right there in front of me.

I have a few other ideas to try and will report back when I have achieved more.

What i really need now is to get an engine set up on a bench at work so I have something real to work with.

EDIT

All this may just be a waste of time considering new working igniters are getting harder to acquire. Maybe the recent post on Chinese DC GY6 adjustable bike igniters are the solution. Again I need a test engine to prove this actually could be the answer as they are cheap enough to fire the parts cannon rather than waste time testing OEM and Chinese EZGO ones.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:11 AM   #272
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmaster View Post
What I really need is someone with a scope and a pre MCI cart to get some real life readings from. Maybe also an MCI so we can understand the differences in these ignition systems.

I.
This is the key here. You need the data on how the actual cart behaves.

You could use an arduino to duplicate this to test the ignitor.


However,
This sorta defeats the purpose of the goal for an “easy way to test the ignitor” as the average person at home isn’t going to be able to do this.

There really is no “easy” way to test it unfortunately. Which is probably why the service manual will tell you how to test pretty much every other part of the ignition system. And the test for an ignitor is to “replace with known good unit”.

Is it possible to test the ignitor with a home made test fixture? Sure. But possible for the every day DIY’er that hasn’t graduated from CM University? Unfortunately, I doubt it.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:31 AM   #273
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

That is why my edit included trying out the GY6. so " test with known good igniter" could be the only simple answer!

I have always worked my tests with a good igniter and I still carry one in my "Electrical" tool box, but even that is not really an easy option these days. That is the only reason I am playing around with the idea. Most people do not have access to "known good" just chineseum "Unknown"

As to highjacking the wrong thread in your other post. I blame you every time. I wont take any credit for it so wont get banned.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:36 AM   #274
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

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This is the key here. You need the data on how the actual cart behaves.

You could use an arduino to duplicate this to test the ignitor.
Arduino? is that an exotic plant or disease ?

Im too old to start playing with that stuff. I dont understand what goes on in those little black spider things with lots of legs on the boards. I only slightly understand discrete components although i can get my head around a 555 timer chip and a 741 op amp and thats about it.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:55 AM   #275
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

Arduino is the combination of a fart and sneeze at the same time


Arduino is pretty easy. It’s open source and most things you’d ever want to do has already been done. But without knowing what we’re supposed to emulate it’s just speculation anyway, but do-able once we had the information. At least to a point of “1500 rpm steady” to be able to check for spark. However, it would still be an emulator with a very controlled output. Unlike a cart with a range of variables (engine rpm, voltage, temperature, ground resistance, output load (coil), etc.)

It could feasibly be designed to test function of an ignitor. But only “lab” or bench scenarios. Anyone in engineering knows lab vs real world are very different environments. But it could still serve purpose to test function….

I think it would be better to have a Chinese company knock off a real oem ignitor. They can do it with incredible quality and price would probably be about the same as oem but at least it could be available. But the challenging part would be selling them on the business case…
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Old 06-17-2022, 03:06 AM   #276
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Default Re: Talking through an ignition problem

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Arduino is the combination of a fart and sneeze at the same time

If we could separate the two, we might be on to something here

I think it would be better to have a Chinese company knock off a real oem ignitor. They can do it with incredible quality and price would probably be about the same as oem but at least it could be available. But the challenging part would be selling them on the business case…

That is exactly it. I think you already know i had dealings with them in the past. What was a perfectly good design from development with one company, was taken by another and produced cheaper with less function and sold as a different product. Needless to say, it failed sales soon after launch! I think the same thing happened with the igniters. The original chinese clones were fairly reliable, but then were re copied and you have what is available now. One US company seems to be selling reliable igniters and i am guessing these were the original clones still being produced by the original chinese factory unless they have a back stock of genuine EZGO ones.

But that would be pretty much what we want. Just prove the igniter will show negative to charge the coil and then drop out to create a spark when it sees a pulse across the input. I am assuming it reacts to the drop rather than the ramp up like points ( if you remember what they are LOL ). Most dead ones either show no reaction or constant negative, constant power or nothing at all. There are a few things you can check with a multimeter but you need the pulse to see if it will react.

Maybe the younger generation can simply do this with that exotic disease machine?

I dunno. Maybe I should just go back to sleep now I am at work.
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