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Old 02-19-2016, 11:44 AM   #1
atomicdogg
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Default New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Hi everyone,

I've been reading through the threads here for a while and there is a ton of good information.I recently purchased a 2009 EZgo PDS and caught the bug to start modifying it. Currently it’s stock other than an added rear seat and 2 gauge battery cables.

Its primary usage will be on paved trails/streets and my ultimate goal is to upgrade to 42V and redo the suspension and tires so it rides like a Cadillac.

I’ve done a basic voltage test and the pack measures 37.11 straight off the charger (in 50 degree weather) and held the same charge when I checked it 12 hours later. I drove it for about 2 miles this morning with moderate speed and small hills brought it back and let it sit for 30 minutes and the pack read 36.07. The batteries are all stamped C1 so I know they’re about at the end of their usable life.

I need some advice on what to do first, replace the batteries or run them into the ground and spend my money on a controller upgrade? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:11 PM   #2
skipsmith521
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Default

I personally went the route of upgrading my batteries and cables first.

After a few weeks of having new batteries, I swapped out the controller.

Having a good battery set to start off with became important to me. It was kind of difficult spending the amount of money on batteries and it doesn't feel like you have upgraded anything.

Found myself lifting the seat to look at my new battery set to make me feel good about batteries first...but for me, it was a good decision.

Someone else may tell you a more technical reason for one or the other...

Good luck

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

It is sort of a Catch-22. You need batteries in the very near future, but can't upgrade to 42V without changing the controller and solenoid (and battery charger).

Your batteries are not being fully charged. They should be about 45V when the charger shuts off, so it might be a charger issue.

What charger are you using?

There might be ways to prolong the demise of your 36V pack a bit to spread the upgrade cost over time a little.

Go with an Alltrax XCT48xxxPDS (the xxx is for either 400A or 500A version) and a 400A/1000A solenoid. (Both will run at 36V or 42V or 48V)
http://www.cartsunlimited.net/alltra...-controls.html

--------

Install controller and solenoid now and upgrade to 42V later.

Also, don't forget 48V. A 6 x 8V pack fits under the seat and with the XCT you can limit the motor RPM down to a safe value while having the high torque a 48V system gives.

-------
Good luck of getting to ride like a Cadillac.

Maybe a STS-V with the stability control set to the harshest setting, I have serious doubts that my cart would ever ride as smooth as my DTS or SLS.
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

FWIW: 2Ga cables was my first upgrade.

My batteries were only charging to about 85% SoC, but I managed to get them to charge to 95% SoC by doing back to back charges with PW-II charger, so I replaced the controller and solenoid next, going with the 48V 400A/1000A Super-Duty solenoid, so I could up the pack voltage when I replaced the batteries.

I wanted a 30+ mile range, so I went with seven 245AH 6V batteries.

I no longer have use of a 30+ mile range (change in golf cart local ordinances doesn't allow me to make the trip I needed the range for), so I'll likely go to 48V the next time I replace the batteries. I don't need any more torque than I already have, but I do have a lot of hills and at with 48V, my cart won't slow as much on them. It really doesn't slow much at 42V, but what the heck.
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:33 PM   #5
atomicdogg
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Thanks for the fast replies guys!

JohnnieB
My charger is the “standard” Power Wise Model 28115G04. I’ll try the back to back charges and see if that gets me anything. Is that as simple as letting it charge, unhooking the charger and then repeating the process with taking voltage measurements in-between?

From what I’ve read on the various threads it sounded like the 42V upgrade was the way to go for PDS carts. Is that because the older style controllers were not programmable like the new Alltrax XCT series so you could spin your motor to fast?

I don’t have a need for a 30mile cart either maybe 15 miles max on fairly flat ground, is that possible with a new controller and 48V pack?

Thanks for the luck with “Cadillac ride” Once I get my power situation straightened out suspension is next. She’s from a golf course and as a hack golfer I know how they get used/abused.

Thanks again for the advice!
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicdogg View Post
Thanks for the fast replies guys!

JohnnieB

1. My charger is the “standard” Power Wise Model 28115G04. I’ll try the back to back charges and see if that gets me anything. Is that as simple as letting it charge, unhooking the charger and then repeating the process with taking voltage measurements in-between?

2. From what I’ve read on the various threads it sounded like the 42V upgrade was the way to go for PDS carts. Is that because the older style controllers were not programmable like the new Alltrax XCT series so you could spin your motor to fast?

3. I don’t have a need for a 30mile cart either maybe 15 miles max on fairly flat ground, is that possible with a new controller and 48V pack?

4. Thanks for the luck with “Cadillac ride” Once I get my power situation straightened out suspension is next. She’s from a golf course and as a hack golfer I know how they get used/abused.

Thanks again for the advice!
1. That is more or less the charger I expected. Both yellow and red flags waved at me when you said you had 37.11V straight off the charge and the same about 12 hours later.

Yellow: When working correctly, that charger shuts off in the 44V to 46V range, so if you got 37.11V immediately after when you unplugged the charger from the cart, either something is amiss with the charger, or the charger had shut off normally several hours before it was unplugged from the cart.

Red: An at-rest voltage of 37.11V is only 70% SoC. With some back-to-back charging that might improve a bit.

No need to take a voltage reading between charges, it doesn't tell you much of anything.

We need to verify the charge is working correctly.
When first connected to cart, the ammeter should climb to about 18A to 20A within the first few seconds and the battery pack's on-charge voltage should start climbing.

When the on-charge voltage climbs above about 40V, the amps will start decreasing.
The on-charge voltage will most likely stay at about 42V for a long time and the amps while continue to decrease until they bottom out at about 2A to 7A.

When the amps bottom out, the voltage will begin to climb again and someplace in the 44V to 46V rage, the charger will shut off automatically.

Sounds like you have a decent voltmeter. If it has a peak hold or Min.Max function, use it to catch the max voltage the charger reaches. Otherwise, the second or third back-to-back charge doesn't last very long, so you probably won't fall asleep trying to watch the meter.

I did about 3 or 4 back-to-back charges or very short trips between charges for a couple days and then twice a day plus short trips and an occasion charger restart when I happened to be close to the cart.

YMMV, but I got a 10% gain in max SoC in about two weeks.

2. It depends of tire height and type. With stock tires (18") a stock PDS motor will spin at about 6500RPM at 42V and the is max recommended RPM for most cart motors. Taller tires take more torque to turn, so the motor won't reach as high of an RPM at 42V, even though the cart may go faster.

42V is a good voltage for PDS carts because it ups both torque and speed by 16.7% over 36V and seven 6V batteries readily fit under the seat.

The Alltrax DCX controller does not limit motor RPM, so going to 48V with stock height tires or not much taller than stock, could spin the motor over 6500RPM. The XCT uses the motor speed sensor and will limit the RPM to whatever you set the slider to.

3. A 48V pack made up from 170AH 8V batteries will give the cart roughly the same range as it had with a 36V pack using 225AH 6V batteries. Six 8V-170AH batteries weigh more than six 6V-225AH batteries, but have a little more stored energy (Watt-Hours), so it pretty much breaks even on range.

FWIW: My 2008 PDS with a DCX400 controller, got upwards of 25 miles on the 36V battery pack I had "rejuvinated".

4. If you plan to use it on a golf course, put radial turf tires on it and stay under 20" so you don't have to lift the body off the frame for tire clearance.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:16 PM   #7
atomicdogg
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

JohnnieB you are a wealth of electrical knowledge!

1. Ran another charging cycle on it and with the charger running it was holding at about 45V near the end before the charger shut off, once the charger was off it dropped to 40.5V. I’ll run a few more cycles over the next few days and see where that gets me.

2. I was thinking about a small lift and Jake's LT kit to improve the ride so I will at least have 20” tires.

3. While waiting for the batteries to charge I was doing some more reading on the forms and came across one of your posts a few years back that compared projected life span and run time of 6V–8V-12V. I read it as 6V batteries last longer (life and run time) than 8V or 12V, does that still hold true?

Definitely plan on talking to ScottyB about the XCT series controllers once I figure out if I want 42V or 48V. I don’t really need the range but like the extra speed and torque of 42V or 48V.

Thank you again for your help
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Old 02-20-2016, 09:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicdogg View Post
JohnnieB you are a wealth of electrical knowledge!

1. Ran another charging cycle on it and with the charger running it was holding at about 45V near the end before the charger shut off, once the charger was off it dropped to 40.5V. I’ll run a few more cycles over the next few days and see where that gets me.

2. I was thinking about a small lift and Jake's LT kit to improve the ride so I will at least have 20” tires.

3. While waiting for the batteries to charge I was doing some more reading on the forms and came across one of your posts a few years back that compared projected life span and run time of 6V–8V-12V. I read it as 6V batteries last longer (life and run time) than 8V or 12V, does that still hold true?

4. Definitely plan on talking to ScottyB about the XCT series controllers once I figure out if I want 42V or 48V. I don’t really need the range but like the extra speed and torque of 42V or 48V.

Thank you again for your help
Nearly all my electric golf cart knowledge has been gleaned from the BGW forum, or from research triggered by the questions asked here. Of course, having worked with electronic and electromechanical devices for over 50 years helped some.

1. The on-charge voltage climbing to about 45V is good sign that the charger is working.

What is the max amps reached during the charge cycle?

Charge the living daylights out of them, but don't charge if then if their electrolyte temperature climbs above about 110°F.

2. Taller tires ride smoother over bumps, but lifting a cart raises the center of gravity and reduces stability, so it is a compromise.

3. Yes, it still holds true in general, but there are overlaps between the highest capacity 8V batteries and the lowest capacity 6V batteries.

The thing to remember is that 6V, 8V and 12V batteries are simply a number of 2V cells connected in series in a box containing 3, 4 or 6 cells respectively.

To get 48V, you need twenty-four 2V cells, which works out to either four 12V boxes, six 8V boxes or eight 6V boxes.

Since the boxes used for golf cart batteries are roughly the same physical dimensions, the cells used in a 12V box are about half the size of the cells used in a 6V box and the cell in a 8V box are about 3/4 the size of the cells used in a 6V box.

The differences in run-time and lifespan of 6V, 8V and 12V batteries is determined by the size of the 2V cells contained in the box rather than the voltage of the box. Basically, if the acid concentration is the same and the construction of the plates are the same, the difference is the physical area of the plates exposed to the electrolyte.

If you put together a 48V battery pack using twenty-four 300AH 2V cells, it wouldn't matter if the 200AH 2V cells were packaged 3 to a box, or 4 to a box or 6 to a box, the run-time and lifespan would be roughly the same. Of course, the box sizes would be different, so fitting them into the cart might be challenging.

4. Go with the XCT and Super-Duty (400A/1000A) solenoid combination and you can go with either 36V, 42V or 48V when you replace the batteries.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:14 AM   #9
atomicdogg
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Amps peak at about 20-22 when first plugged in then drop accordingly. I'll keep charging it over the next week to try and squeeze a little more life out of them.

I didn't realize all the cells in those batteries were the same, but that makes perfect scene.

Thanks again for all your help
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: New Batteries or Controller Upgrade First

Sorry so hijack the thread, but I was reading and got me thinking about my charger.
But after installing the on board pack meter, I started looking at the reading while charging.

I have a Powerwise II charger (Model 60271 cart is a 97 EZGo Shuttle 36v

After a couple of rides during the day the pack was at 36.7; put it to charge yesterday ~7pm. And this morning (7am) the charger was off and the meter was reading 38.2 and I unplugged it.
After reading this went back to the garage and plug it back in and it started charging again.

I noticed that when I plug the charger and kicks in it never goes over 10 amps and the highest I have seen the voltage is 42.3.

Is the charger ok? what can I do to test it.
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