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Old 01-11-2021, 05:48 PM   #1
Tfastle@aol.com
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Default Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

I did a post last week on the reassembly of a Robin 350 MCI. I got the parts and am getting it together but have a bit of an issue with the rings.

I got Red Hawk ENG-218 piston kits (std) but there is no instructions on which ring is which nor which way they face. Obviously I know that the 3 part oil ring goes in the bottom grove but with the wiper and compression rings I don't know. I gather Red Hawk pistons are fairly commonly used for this engine but I may be wrong on that. I called Red Hawk and they first said I had to go to the dealer I got them from. I did that and the dealer said it didn't matter but to make sure the V is up (I don't know what V)and that now a days they use 2 compression rings (although these 2 rings are not the same). I called Red Hawk again and after the guy that answered the phone spoke to Technical Support he told me (I couldn't talk directly with Tech support) to do it like the Robin Manual says and that the ring with the letters RN goes in the top grove with the letters up and the ring with the R goes in the center grove with the letter up. This doesn't seem right to me.

In the manual diagram the top ring does indeed look very much like one of these rings except this new ring has a chamfer on the inside edge. This chamfer is on the side with the letter R. But this ring is the one that Red Hawk said to put in the middle grove. The other ring (the one Red Hawk says is the top ring) really just has a rectangular cross section, no notch (like the 2nd ring in the manual) or chamfer or slight angle like a wiper (and the 2nd ring in the manual). I hope that wasn't as hard to read as it was to write (didn't realize how complicated describing rings is).

I should ad that the gentleman I spoke with at Red Hawk didn't particularly want to discuss it, didn't seem to be very confident it what he was telling me and really didn't like me questioning it at all. I really don't have a lot of confidence in either answer (from the dealer or Red Hawk) to be honest.

So, has anyone here actually used these rings (Red Hawk) and know how they should be installed? If I had to guess (which I may end up having to) I would guess the one that looks like the top ring in the manual but with a chamfer is my top ring, with the letter R up (meaning the chamfer is up which I don't know if chamfers on rings should be up or down or why). And, the other ring that has a rectangular cross section, no notch, no chamfer would go in the center grove with the letters RN up. On the bright side ... I do have a pretty good idea on the oil ring ... I think.

Maybe on these engines it doesn't matter a lot but in my experience with other 4 cycle engines getting the correct rings in the correct positions facing the correct way is pretty important. After all the work this has been this far I sure would like to get it right.

Thanks very much for any input!
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:00 PM   #2
trig123
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

I got a set of Red Hawk rings for a 295. Let me take a look. Its still in the package and I don't see any marking. I do know the silver looking one goes on top ( the compression ring ) I was not sure I was going to use this so I don't want to open the package just yet in case I decide to sell them. i have had them for a few years . Do you see any marking on yours ?
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Hey Trig. Yes there are markings on the two in question.

One has a white "R" on it. That one is the one I think is the top or compression ring. I think that because it is shaped just like the compression ring in the book except it has a chamfer around the inside circumference that is on the side where the R is. The one in the book does not have a chamfer either ring. This ring also has a "shinny" or light grey outside circumference face, slightly rounded edges.

The other ring has "RN" on it, it's cross section is rectangular (no angle, chamfer or grove) and is all the same color, dark grey (no machined edges).

Again, like I said in my post, if I don't get any clarification, I am guessing the one with the N is the top and the N goes up which would have the chamfer up. And the one with RN is the middle ring and goes with the RN up. I will try to get a picture or to of them.
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

I do see the white R on the scraper, or wiper ring ring which would be the 2nd ring from top. I am thinking that R would go down but I can't say for sure. I am only guessing because both rings are the same way in package , the R is down. I have sent Red Hawk a message and will wait and see what they say
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Hey Trig. Yes there are markings on the two in question.

One has a white "R" on it. That one is the one I think is the top or compression ring. I think that because it is shaped just like the compression ring in the book except it has a chamfer around the inside circumference that is on the side where the R is. The one in the book does not have a chamfer either ring. This ring also has a "shinny" or light grey outside circumference face, slightly rounded edges.

The other ring has "RN" on it, it's cross section is rectangular (no angle, chamfer or grove) and is all the same color, dark grey (no machined edges).

Again, like I said in my post, if I don't get any clarification, I am guessing the one with the N is the top and the N goes up which would have the chamfer up. And the one with RN is the middle ring and goes with the RN up. I will try to get a picture or to of them.
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Old 01-12-2021, 03:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Sorry for the accidental repost above.

Hummm... I hear you. I hope Red Hawk does indeed have a specific answer. As mentioned, I didn't have great luck with the call I put in and didn't think to email them.

Buy, this gave me an idea. I have one of the pistons that came out of it in an old box. The rod on it broke and the skirts are all broken up, it's rusted and dirty but the rings are in tact. With some cleaning I was able to get the rings off of it. They look very much like the Red Hawk rings and not nearly as much like the ones in the manual. There are dots on them that faced upward.

The top ring has the same edges as the "shinny" Red Hawk one (has some machining that gives it a very slight chamfer on the outside top and bottom edges and creates what I am calling the "shinny" look) and the inner chamfer on that ring was up.

The middle ring looks just like the Red Hawk ring that is not "shinny". Has a dot which was up and has a square edged rectangular cross section. I am fairly certain these were the original pistons as it was only 3-4 years old when the guy blew it up.

So, based on that, although I understand it's different pistons, unless Red Hawk says otherwise, I think the Top ring is the one with the "R" and the Middle ring is the one with "RN" and they both go with the letters facing up.

If you hear back from Red Hawk please let me know what they say. Otherwise, I'm going to go with what I just said.

This really shouldn't be this difficult. Thanks for your input Trig!
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Old 01-12-2021, 03:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Mine like I said is still in package but I moved the rings around and can see which is the 2nd ring ( scraper ring ) picture included

The top ring is chrome colored always. I just don't want to open the package yet like I mentioned so I really can't see if any marking is on it but I am sure it is like yours.



Unless someone here can confirm this mark position I will have to wait. I would be the same as you on which way to install
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File Type: jpg mark on scraper ring.jpg (74.3 KB, 0 views)
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Old 01-12-2021, 04:40 PM   #8
trig123
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Ok, I removed the rings from the package. I don't have great eyes but it looks to me that the R which is on both my rings would go up because of the way the scraper or as some call it wiper ring is made ( the 2nd ) one.

Most of the wiper rings have a taper angle face which is positioned toward the bottom to provide a wiping action as the piston moves down toward the crank.

These rings have that taper angle and if you put it on the piston that way the R is up.

I don't want to cause you to install these wrong but I think that is correct. I included a 2nd picture for you. Hope this helps. If it uses oil blame it on Red Hawk
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File Type: jpg rings.jpg (134.4 KB, 0 views)
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Old 01-12-2021, 05:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

Are you assuming that the rings come in the package in the order they go onto the piston? Most of my experience has been with motorcycles and (2 strokes at that) and those rings, when there is multiple, are generally the same. With 4 cycles is it standard to always package them in order or just sometimes it's that way?

My other set, for the second piston is still in the package and does have the one with RN, if RN was facing up, on top of the one R that is facing the same way. If that were the order, then it would have to be either letters facing up with RN on top and R in the middle or, letters facing down and R on top with RN on the bottom. With the first of those configurations (RN on top, letters up), the top ring would be the rectangular cross section ring which is different that what was on the original piston With the second of those configurations, (R on top, letters down) the chamfer would be facing down, opposite of what came on the original piston.

Also, while sometimes the markings may face down I would have to guess the vast majority of the time markings on rings face up. I just seem to make more sense.

Unless it's always standard to package rings in order I think I am still sticking with the following, Letters facing up, R the top ring, RN the middle ring. This matches very closely with what is in the manual with the only difference being the bottom ring does not have a notch (like in the book). It also matches just like the rings I just took off the original piston.

Sound like I'm trying to talk myself into something? ... Yep.

Oh well, sometimes you gotta say, "what the ..... "
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Old 01-12-2021, 05:29 PM   #10
trig123
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Default Re: Robin 350 new Red Hawk Pistons, which way do the RINGS GO??

No, I didn't mean to say that just because they came in package they went that way. I was on the phone and wasn't really paying attention to what I was posting :)

I also didn't want to mislead you so that's why I showed you the picture in last post on the correct way for the 2nd ring to go.


In all my years of building engines I have never once seen a mark on the bottom of a ring so if it were me I would put the R on top on both compression ring and wiper ring. The rest I am sure you know how to do it.

Did you put the ring in the cylinder and check clearance ? where the gap is .
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