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Old 01-16-2018, 01:16 AM   #1
ThreeCW
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Default Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

Our cart is a 1998 Cushman Utility Cart – 48 volt – 6.5 hp Series Motor – 600 Amp Curtis Controller. This is a heavy duty work cart that we use it at our hobby farm … a lot for personal transport but also with loads up to 1200 lbs (total loaded cart weight = 2800 lbs). In addition, typical use is slow speed (2 to 10 mph) on hills, gravel roads and through pastures.

The present 8 x 6 volt lead acid batteries are 5 years old and by monitoring voltages, I notice they are getting weaker and believe they are on their way out.

I have been reading the lithium threads on BGW, researching lithium on line and have even communicated with Alltrax about their future lithium offerings. This is what I recently got back from Alltrax:

“Alltrax has no plans at this time to develop a lithium system for series carts. I think it would be safe to say that it is not generally applicable for series systems. Lithium batteries simply can’t supply the same peak currents of lead acid that a series motor may demand and without communication between the BMS and controller something would eventually be damaged. I would consider converting the vehicle to a shunt system and then to lithium.”

I have tried unsuccessfully to find any technical information on my motor which is identified in my manual as a GE Model 5BC49JB3054 which is a 6.5 hp – 48 volt – 4700 rpm Series Motor. Partial motor tag information: FR - 49, Insul Class - H, Wound - Series, Amb - 40 C, Type Rating - Cont, S/N RNJ040045, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Assembled in Mexico (rest of the tag is inconveniently hidden under the motor support bracket!)

I understand that Series Motors can draw a lot of amps … especially in our heavy-duty work cart application (with low speeds and high torques) but I have not been able to find any motor performance charts to confirm what the typical amperages may be.

I also note that many lithium ion batteries have limited discharge current ratings; for example, the Sinopoly SP-LFP100AHA (100 amp hour) is rated at a Standard Current Discharge of 33A and a Maximum Current Discharge of 300A (3C). Similarly, the CALB CA100 (100 amp hour) is rated at a Maximum Current Discharge of 200A (2C). GBS-LFMP100AH cells are rated considerably higher with a Maximum Discharge Current of 300 amps (3C) continuous or 1000 amp (10C) pulsed (not sure what “pulsed” means in this application ... is that like the 3 second rule?).

Can anyone provide information on the amperage draw expectations for my Series Motor application?

Does anyone have experience using a lithium battery pack on a heavy work cart application that they can share?

Or is converting to Lithium not appropriate in a Heavy-Duty Series Cart application?

Regards, 3CW
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:01 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

That is the first I’m hearing that lithium cannot handle power demands. At the same time I can only imagine that Matt at Alltrax is more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Hopefully PingEye3 will chime in, I’m confident he can add some perspective here.


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Old 01-17-2018, 11:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

My main concern is that some of the lithium batteries are rated for relatively low discharge rates ... lower than what I expect my Series Cart requires.

Do any of the BGW members have experience with Lithium Batteries in your Series Carts?
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeCW View Post
My main concern is that some of the lithium batteries are rated for relatively low discharge rates ... lower than what I expect my Series Cart requires.



Do any of the BGW members have experience with Lithium Batteries in your Series Carts?


Furyous does... PingEye3 is also an invaluable resource on lithium conversions.

Easy answer is don’t buy junk lithium batteries and know what the continuous amp draw on your cart is.


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Old 01-18-2018, 02:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

JohnnieB?
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E36Racer View Post
Easy answer is don’t buy junk lithium batteries and know what the continuous amp draw on your cart is.
For comparison to the batteries I listed above, do you know what the current ratings are for the Nissan Leaf batteries that you used in your cart? I was not able to locate ratings for them on the internet.

I am not sure what Lithium batteries are considered JUNK (so it might not be an easy answer) ... which ones to buy and which ones to stay away from seem a little vague at this time.

I am planning to do some amperage testing on my cart when I can locate the right meter ... and should be smarter about sourcing a Lithium battery pack with the required discharge capacity. I am thinking about getting a Fluke i410 AC/DC current clamp for this testing unless someone can suggest a better way
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:50 AM   #7
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Default Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

Here is the specs for the Leaf cells I have. And when I say don’t buy junk cells I meant ones designed for RV backup batts or home solar storage.




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Old 01-18-2018, 12:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

Thanks E36Racer

Do you know what the Discharge Current Ratings of your Lithium Cells are (Standard and Maximum ... which I suppose translates into the Continuous Discharge and Peak Discharge Rates)?

It sounds like the performance of your Leaf Cells meets and exceeds your expectations ... but my concern is to maximize the life of the cells by not exceeding their rated discharge capacities on my Series cart. I assume that if I regularly pull 250 amps out of a cell that is rated for a 200 amp maximum, that the cell life is going to be dramatically reduced.

Lots of things to consider when making an investment in Lithium cells.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

I did some current testing on my Cushman using a Fluke 325 Clamp Meter as follows:
- Metering point = 2 AWG battery cable between battery 7 and 8 (see photo)
- Cart Base Weight (with driver) = 1850 lbs
- Cart Loaded Weight = 2800 lbs (loaded with 950 lbs of feed bags - see photo)
- Drive wheels equipped with tire chains (giving traction but added rolling resistance)
- Outside Temperature = 1 C (34 F)
- Cart was previously stored inside garage at 5 C (41 F) … assumed starting battery temperature

DC Amperage Testing Results as follows:

Flat Road (packed snow on plowed gravel road)
- Soft Start = 100 amps at base weight
- Full Acceleration Start = 280 amps at base weight
- Cruising at ~5 mph = 50 amps at base weight / 75 amps at loaded weight
- Cruising at ~10 mph = 100 – 120 amps at base weight / 80 amps at loaded weight

Uphill Road (packed snow on plowed gravel road)
- Soft Start = 120 amps at base weight
- Cruising at ~2 mph = 125 amps at base weight / 150 amps at loaded weight
- Cruising at ~5 mph = 200 amps at base weight / 300 amps at loaded weight
- Flat out (+5 mph) = 250 amps at base weight / 300 amps at loaded weight

Flat Terrain With Snow (6” deep lightly crusted snow on lawn)
- Soft Start = 150 amps at base weight
- Cruising at ~2 mph = 150 - 200 amps at base weight / 180 - 200 amps at loaded weight
- Cruising at ~5 mph = 250 - 400 amps at base weight / 380 - 400 amps at loaded weight

Analysis:
- This amperage testing was done to determine the battery discharge requirements if a lithium battery system was installed in the future.

- The above testing is not my typical operating conditions but does simulate the maximum continuous amperage that could be experienced during extreme operations.

- Given the above results, a lithium battery continuous discharge requirement of 400 amps would be required to stay within the safe operating capacity of the batteries.

- Given my preliminary review of lithium batteries, it might be difficult to “economically” achieve this 400 amp continuous discharge requirement.

Questions:

Any comments on my testing procedures, results or analysis?

Do any of the BGW members have experience with Lithium Batteries in your Series Carts?

Are Lithium battery users designing their packs to ensure they stay within the Maximum Continuous Amperage rating of their cells?

The Nissan Leaf cells are a popular battery for lithium conversions in golf carts but I have not been able to find any verifiable data for the Amperage Rating for these cells. Can anyone provide this information?

Does anyone know of any lithium cells that will be able to “economically” meet a 400 amp discharge requirement?

Thanks for your feedback!
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:27 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is our Series Cart a practical application for Lithium Batteries?

I haven't done much research on lithium battery packs for carts, so I don't know the answers to your questions, but there are a couple of things I can toss into the mix from from the limited lithium knowledge I have.

You 8 x 6V battery pack weighs about 530 pounds and a Lithium battery pack will weigh less than 100 pounds, so your cart would be about 400 pounds lighter and that will lower the Amp requirements.

Going to a higher voltage will reduce the amps needed for the same amount of work. For example, it takes around 100A at 48V to produce 6.5HP, about 75A at 64V and roughly 67A at 72V. Of course going to 64V or 72V will probably require a different controller and maybe a different motor.

To get higher Amps, add more cells in parallel. Lithium battery packs are made up of several individual cells that are connected in series to get the desired voltage and parallel for ampacity.

Sorry I cannot be of more help, but I did give you a couple people top contact in my reply to your PM.
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