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Old 01-29-2013, 11:18 PM   #1
bansheemxer
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Default Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

I was just trying to find any info on true dyno numbers for these 420cc clone motors. I wasn't successful on that but did come across an article where three of the smaller clones were put on the dyno after just intake, re-jetting, and governor removal. The numbers surprised me (all were around 10hp) and got me to wondering what exactly these 420cc gx390 clones are putting down after just the simple mods. Especially compared to the actual Honda vs. the Predator vs. like the Greyhound, Lifan, and Carroll Stream style motors. Anyway...here is the link.

http://www.nkn.com/nationalkartnews/...,_PART_II.html
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:38 PM   #2
geoffw
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

As soon as the 440s arrive, we are planning a massive dyno session for the big block clones and all stages of mods...It will be great!
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

All I know is with full build of cam/rod/flywheel/valvetrain/done head/etc you can get 30hp out of a gx390 or clone. Beyond that the clone block will crack you have to get a honda block. You are talking 7-8K rpm or something high like that, and includes a big carb and header. However its not really reliable, not really good for a GC and not going to work with stock clutches at all. Odds are a more mild cam (still much larger than stock) would work better in a cart as it will have more torque and be somewhat reliable. Or of course, go with more cubes is what Geoff is looking at with his engines...which is what the 420 was to start with a stroker/bored 390.

My clone does not feel much stronger than the stock one, though I'd say it is somewhat stronger. The stock one has larger airbox and exhaust and no governor is all. Mine pulls a little higher rpm than the stock one, it pulls hard to about 4600 and by 5K it is gutless. I think the stock one is maybe 400 rpm lower it does that but did not run the tach on that one. They will eventually go faster but takes a while, much like the stock engine will after it shifts out. But, if they are rated at 3600 mine certainly makes more power at 4000-4500 without a doubt. From experience I know when you use a dyno its ALWAYS less than you think lol.

I doubt there is much if any difference between the stock engines of different brands but same cc, but I could be wrong. I know mine was jetted differently than the carolstream, but I would assume anyone would fix the jetting once engine was in its final stage of installation.

The difference with the gx200/clones is they will rev no problem with just no governor, the 390/420 will not do so that easily. The 390 does seem to run 500rpm higher than the 420 from what I see, in fact it might be the same aside from bore/stroke so that would make perfect sense.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

sho,

Typically I would agree with you, but there is an ENORMOUS amount of mis-information in your post that I have to disagree with. It appears like you are spitting out information you've read on a message board and not facts that youve learned from lengthy R&D and personal experience.

I can tell you that Ive spent nearly 20hrs a week since September, R&Ding these 420s and have gone from a stock 420 to a completely built 440 and pretty much every combination in-between. All of my testing has been done on the same white 1992 Club Car DS with 12" rims and 18" low pro tires, utilizing the same CPP clutches that I started out with. So I can assure you that my R&D was completely relevant to the subject.

Furthermore, I have had direct contact with Charles Mosley (minidragbike), Jeremy Parsons (Parsons Racing Engines), Russell @ NR-Racing, Shane @ Affordable Go Karts, and Tim Iskenderian (Small Engine Cams). These people are some of, in not THE, TOP Clone Engine builders in the country. Each and every one of them has led me in the right direction and they have all contributed to my 440 program in one way or another.

My goal was to develop an engine specific to Golf Carts, that was extremely affordable, yet also yielded massive power gains and maintained reliability and low end torque. The goal was to develop this platform and make it available for HALF the cost of a typical v-twin big block swap.

As of right now, I have 440 engines 2 weeks away, and performance parts 2 months away. I have used Parsons and Isky parts exclusively in the meantime to test the 420 & 440 CLONE engines that I have in house. These are the FACTS:

-Big Engines Like Big Cams , The bigger the cam I put in them, the more OVERALL HP and Torque they gained. I tested 7 cams, starting with a 220 Duration/.280 Lift cam. I ended up with a 260 Duration / .410 Lift cam that Isky ground custom for me. Every time that I went up to a larger cam, I gained more power throughout the ENTIRE rpm range. Iam positive that I could go even larger, however, I feel that the 260/410 cam is a great all-around setup and will serve as a dual-purpose cam so even the kart and lawnmower guys can use it. Eventually I will test some .500 lift cams, the real issue I ran into was clearance with the crank. This cam is .020" away from hitting as it is.

-7000rpm is the limit for the big blocks when it comes to reliability(they dont like to rev), thats the reason I stuck with stock size valves. The stock 35/31mm valves wont make power past 6500rpm anyway, the key to keeping these engines alive is keeping the RPMs down. Keep it at 7k or under and you will not have a reliability issue.

-Stock Clutches are good for stock engines, if you want to make power and use it, you will need to upgrade the clutch first. Stick with CPPs Clutch, its rated to 30hp. Im probably making 32-33 and its holding up just fine. You dont see V-Twin swaps with stock clutches very often! More Power = More Supporting Mods...Bottom Line

-A Built Clone with a Billet Rod, Hard-Face-Welded Camshaft, Stainless Valves, Chrome Silicon Springs, Aluminum or Titanium Retainers. Chromoly Pushrods, and Shaft Rockers, is going to be MUCH stronger and more reliable than stock. The stock rod flexes and deforms under high power, it also is a piss poor design for high speed lubrication and will gall the crank. I ran a stock rod and valves for ALONG time and ALOT of abuse. I didnt have 1 problem until the day I put a cam in it. Even the small cam was such a drastic power increase, the stock rod and valves ate the sheets within 4 hours. Stock valves are junk and cannot withstand the higher valvespring pressures of dual springs, so bottom line is, they dont call it a "Built" engine for their health. Its "Built" so it can RELIABLY take the abuse associated with a high horsepower application. Both ARC and Parsons rods have taken tons of abuse on the go kart tracks which are significantly harder on any engine than a Golf Cart is. 6500+ rpm for 30 mins at a time.

-Dyno numbers mean nothing! I have a drag mustang that makes over 1200HP but it only makes 700rwhp on a chassis dyno. There are too many variables to consider with dynos, so its really a waste of time trying to compare them in any way, especially when considering two different setups. I tune clone'd golf carts based on feel, its not like we are drag racing and trying to get every last .01 of a second. All we care about is that the cart starts easily, idles smoothly, and pulls smoothly through the whole rpm band without issue, and of course...it must pull really hard, and do big wheelies :)

I would continue but Im very hungry at the moment and dinner is ready. I hope to post some good videos this weekend but I just havent had time lately. Im anxious to get the built engine'd cart on youtube. Its way past the point of being safe and is really cool seeing as how you can get soo much power into a stock height cart, no lift kit needed(HUGE advantage of clones over v-twins.).

-Geoff Warner
702-335-4002
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

Exactly what is ENORMOUS misinformation? I've spent countless hours reading Mosleys and other's posts for a couple years plus, I don't recall you on here with an interest in it. What you just explained is the issue: all these clones are built for karts and minibikes and they rarely are reliable or made for any reliable use. I know that, and am behind what you are doing all the way because nobody else is doing it. I asked Precision/NR and others to recommend or put on their site something about GC and buggies BB clone builds, but they seemed not to be interested. All they say is put all the expensive parts on it and run it hard....just like a gokart would. There are also a lot of people putting clones in those buggies to replace GY6s.

Of course they will make more power with larger cams, what engine does not? But they are still lawn engines. If you can find ways to keep them together without breaking the bank that is great and I hope you can. A (gokart/minibike) built up 390 is more expensive than a vanguard, it may be nicer in some applications but not others.

My post was talking about general heavily built 390s for open class, and two stock cam 420s I put into carts...that is all. Sure you can get huge power, but it will cost you and its not very usable in a golfcart commonly used for offroad stuff, something people want to run every time they take a ride, etc. I don't want 30hp at 7K rpm waiting to blow up in my golf cart when I'm 2 hours down a trail....is the point I was trying to make about heavily built engines. Something mild and reliable and affordable is where I'm at, and exactly what you were talking about with your 440.

People swear you have to put a flywheel on with any cam, and then nobody can get them to start with a light flywheel.....what a joke, and maybe why none of them want to look at a golf cart application. I know those people can built a mean 390, but they were of limited help to me.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

You have a very valid point. However, when built they offer an extra layer of protection, and you dont need to run it at 7k constantly. There isnt much to these engines and by replacing all of the weak links, what else is there to fail?

Skipping to flywheels, I bought an ARC aluminum flywheel with the ring gear and it does free-rev noticably better, but it actually hurt the bottom end noticably and I cant say that I would want one on my cart, especially if I was off-roading it. Also, you have to idle them higher or they will die. The stock flywheel is strong and works best for our application, until I have one fail and fly apart, then I will continue to use them.

I should have a stack of stock 440 flywheels stacking up in the next few months, so if someone has one and it fails, pay for shipping and Ill give you one. I dont think it would be too difficult to engineer a stronger iron flywheel, but its not in the cards until I see a significant amount of failures.

Also, when you go aluminum, you lose the charging capabilities and the recoil starter....I rely on the recoil starter because my solenoids like to **** the bed every few weeks. You can keep the recoil starters with the RaceSeng flywheels, but they dont make one for the electric start models....

You can see where this is going!
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

With regards to bang for buck, a 420 clone with the following mods will make 20-22hp and doesnt need a billet rod:

-Timing Key
-Ported & Milled Head
-28-32mm ATV/Motocycle Carb
-Header & Free Flowing Exhaust
-HD ValveSprings

Can be done for $400 including the engine.

-Geoff
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffw View Post
With regards to bang for buck, a 420 clone with the following mods will make 20-22hp and doesnt need a billet rod:

-Timing Key
-Ported & Milled Head
-28-32mm ATV/Motocycle Carb
-Header & Free Flowing Exhaust
-HD ValveSprings

Can be done for $400 including the engine.

-Geoff
I'm just missing the carb, except I paid 120 to get the head done....really nice job too, likely too nice for what it is. Will have to be more descriptive next time. And if I get a pumper I found one for about 80. It might work better if I put a long manifold on it to have a pumper, too busy to get on that project yet. Found some 409ss plates to make flanges with though.

I know, this whole flywheel thing is such a pain. The kart guys swear the stocker is tnt if you hit 6K rpm, then again they are rubbing elbows with them....literally. Mine has a big screw (epoxied) in the center of the magnet, it is the magnet that knocks the coil off not the flywheel failing itself. And some of these issues are from early clones that were fixed long ago, so hard to know if it is an issue now or not. I don't need to go over 6 anyway, really I don't want to lose power at 2500+ and assume a cam is only going to cover so many rpm anyway. To keep the pedal start and all that on this cart I can't go wild, other family members use it as well.

Aside from the starting issues I don't think light weight is going to help that much with a CVT. It mostly helps acceleration and with a cvt that does not happen much. I'm stuck with the stock wheel until an answer comes along. Right it makes it start even harder on top of that. I do know other wheels (like from the animal) can easily be machined to the taper and used on the BB clones, but what one would have the weight and run a starter anyway. You can hunt down a honda wheel supposedly they are better, but how much better I don't know.

Should be able to use a plain old ford truck solenoid if its just a solenoid and not the bendix as well. They are running my snow plow for a few years so far lol.

Some of this stuff is getting figured out so more people can use clones, but taking forever. We need a high torque starter slash alternator to bolt on it...that would be the ticket. It just looked like too much hassle to go big with the motor for this cart, it can't fit the needs I have for it. I'll keep trying to get the most out of it though.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffw View Post
With regards to bang for buck, a 420 clone with the following mods will make 20-22hp and doesnt need a billet rod:

-Timing Key
-Ported & Milled Head
-28-32mm ATV/Motocycle Carb
-Header & Free Flowing Exhaust
-HD ValveSprings

Can be done for $400 including the engine.

-Geoff
No disrespect guys but 300lb 7000rpm 22 go cart HP is not the same as 900lb golf cart hp. TORQUE is whats required in a big block. Something a single banger just cant do.

Takes me back to the day a guy pulled in with a 350 ezgo with 295 head running nitrous. Told me it put out 18-20 hp. I pulled out my wifes yard cart with a stock 18 vanny with low tone muffler and said line er up. He was so far behind me I thought his cart stalled. I will kiss your butt under the main stop light in town if your 22hp clone is within 100 feet of a STOCK 18hp vanguard in a 1/8 mile. Oh yeah I'll give ya 2 hours to draw a crowd.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:18 AM   #10
geoffw
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Default Re: Battle of the Clones Dyno run write-up (surprising)

One of these days, I will put the theory to the test and build a V-twin cart. They are definately torquey but it comes at a much higher cost. Alot of it is in the clutch.

Torque makes a huge difference with pulling,climbing and getting the cart moving, however, you have to remember that we have 12:1 gears and a CVT to assist in the torque department. The only v-twin cart I have been in had a 6" lift and 23s on it with a 24hp vanguard. I can tell you without question that my built 420 would destroy it but its been a few years so I cant recall how it would compare with the stock un-cammed clones.

I think the other main reason I like the clones is because you can run them in a bone stock cart.

-Geoff

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlockMan View Post
No disrespect guys but 300lb 7000rpm 22 go cart HP is not the same as 900lb golf cart hp. TORQUE is whats required in a big block. Something a single banger just cant do.

Takes me back to the day a guy pulled in with a 350 ezgo with 295 head running nitrous. Told me it put out 18-20 hp. I pulled out my wifes yard cart with a stock 18 vanny with low tone muffler and said line er up. He was so far behind me I thought his cart stalled. I will kiss your butt under the main stop light in town if your 22hp clone is within 100 feet of a STOCK 18hp vanguard in a 1/8 mile. Oh yeah I'll give ya 2 hours to draw a crowd.
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