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Old 08-10-2018, 10:34 AM   #11
HBR
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

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Originally Posted by Golf cart guy View Post
Original issue was a voltage regulator charging at 17 plus volts, its a common failure. The bad regulator takes out the starter.

Had the cart been taken to a shop, they would have replaced the regulator and the starter, and that would have been it.
Yep. Those cheap parts get expensive fast.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

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Originally Posted by classycarts View Post
So what exactly does a volt reg charging at 17 plus volts do to the starter?

Wouldn't it destroy the battery first? Boil out the water?

It will wound the battery too depending on how long the cart is run, however, it wipes out the starter brushes down to nothing, really quick, especially on the Mando starter., The Advanced starter is a bit more durable. The commutator will blow apart and at that point just toss the starter
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

You need to check the output voltage of a new starter generator befor taking off with it for a drive. Classic example here, the same problem that killed the other S/G may be what killed the new one. Although it's also very likely the new s/g is just a POS. I have an aftermarket one that o replaced with a new OEM a few years ago because the brushes in it exploded and filled the case with big chunks. The springs on the brush holders tried to weld themselves to the commutator and destroyed it.

Letting a brand new starter generator recharge a discharged or damaged battery can also damage it. It over loads the brushes before theyve had a chance to break in to the commutator and will burn the commutator and brushes.

The voltage regulator may have failed again, or the yellow wire from the small terminal on the S/G may be grounded to the frame which will let the S/G run at full output. That's a very easy check with a multimeter, or you can just run a new wire from the S/G to the regulator.
Check your battery's charge level and make sure it's holding a charge after letting it sit for about 24 hours.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

So your saying the end result would look something like this Fairtax4me???

This is from a key start 8 pass. Battery was good. New "OEM" volt reg didn't cure this problem. Still took out a new Admiral starter.
I believe something in that key start system was causing a dead short to ground. Could tell the engine was running under load. Would not take much time for the starter to get hot and melt the solder in the commutator.
Only thing that fixed this problem was removing the key start junk and switch it to a pedal start.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

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So your saying the end result would look something like this Fairtax4me???

This is from a key start 8 pass. Battery was good. New "OEM" volt reg didn't cure this problem. Still took out a new Admiral starter.
I believe something in that key start system was causing a dead short to ground. Could tell the engine was running under load. Would not take much time for the starter to get hot and melt the solder in the commutator.
Only thing that fixed this problem was removing the key start junk and switch it to a pedal start.
Nothing in the key start system would cause that. The only real difference in the key start system is a relay that opens the ground for the ignition coil, which keeps the engine running as long as the key is On. The "Start" position on the key switch does exactly what the pedal switch does on a pedal start cart. There's one scenario I can think of that might cause damage to the starter, and that's if the starter is cranking, but the engine isn't actually running. That would eventually overwork the starter, and could cause the brushes and commutator to burn.

What normally kills a starter generator is overcharging, or a short to ground on one of the 4 wires that's attached to the starter generator. One of those is connected to ground anyway, which narrows it down to 3.
The big white wire from the solenoid is battery supply when the SG is cranking. If the white wire shorts to ground, its the same as shorting the battery to ground, and that white wire is gonna fry pretty quick.

The short black or green wire that runs from the F1 to A1 terminals, can sometimes get pinched against the case, or one of the eyelets can get bent in such a way that it touches the case and causes a short. That's not likely, but does happen, and its VERY obvious if it does, because that wire normally will fry if that does happen, or there will be burn marks on the case where arcing was occurring.

That leaves only one wire left. The yellow wire to the voltage regulator. The regulator limits current through the field coils of the generator, which maintains charge voltage and current based on battery voltage at that time. If the yellow wire gets grounded, gets pinched against the frame, eyelet touches the case, or the regulator fails the generator brushes will overheat and destroy themselves and the commutator.

The only other possible cause of failure would be an internal short of the field windings or armature windings causing an over current problem, or a failed armature bearing. This can be either a manufacturing defect (most likely in the aftermarket starter generators) or cheap brushes that lose big pieces of brush material during the break in.

When one brush breaks, it will damage the surface of the commutator and that, in turn, will cause damage to the other brushes. Damage to the brushes and commutator means a poor connection and high friction which will cause them to burn.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

Excellent explanation Fairtax4me!!

Still not 100% sure if any of those apply to the problem I had.
No sign of overcharged battery. But was not showing a charge at the battery, 2 week old OEM volt reg. No shorted wires but engine ran like it was under a load.
After a minute of running, starter created heat and sounded as if it was putting even more of a drag on the engine and making noise like a dry bearings.
The last test I performed before switching everything out for the pedal start was checking if the gen was putting out any charge. It had zero output but was still laboring the engine when it run.
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

That was probably due to an internal short. One of the brush wires or field coil wires may have grounded against the case, or a winding in one of the field coils may have grounded to the case and it was basically running full current through itself, which will produce a much stronger than normal magnetic field pushing against the normal rotation of the armature (thus causing the engine to labor trying to force the generator to turn). The only thing you could have done at that point was take it off.

It will produce lower output voltage when that happens, lower than battery voltage, so you wont be able to accurately test it without an ammeter.
It could have been disassembled and the coils tested for continuity to the case, but it's not likely you could have done anything to repair it.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

I guess I could perform some tests per the manual on the last starter. It didn't reach the point self destruction.

Do you happen to know why the key start volt reg would have or need more wires than the pedal start volt reg?
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

I hadn't noticed that before, but it does have a 4th wire. It connects to the solenoid on the same pin as the start wire from the switch. Something to tell the regulator to turn on or off possibly with the start signal from the key switch. Or it could be a second sense lead to bump up charge voltage when the engine is at idle.
A quick search didn't turn up anything, but I'll do some digging and see what I find out. I'd also like to know, now that I know it's different than the pedal carts.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: 04 Starter/Generator Burning Up

Please share what you find on that. I'm still not convince the issue I had with this cart was just because of a starter. I just removed the same brand starter from a customers cart I installed 4 yrs ago. Now mind you, the brushes were worn down, armature worn and burnt, so it wasn't worth repairing.
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