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Old 01-08-2020, 01:57 PM   #11
Gallachera89
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Also to add.. My logisystems 700 compared to an Alltrax.. is there much performance difference?
I know not related to this thread but i am curious.. am i dealing with old technology here and maybe i could get ore out of the cart with a newer controller?
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Old 01-08-2020, 01:58 PM   #12
Jake_Daddy
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

It really depends on the motor you got too. My neighbor and I have DS's that are a year apart resistor carts. I have a higher horsepower motor, 2.97 at 2800rpm, and he has the 2.5hp at 3300rpm. I should have more torque but since we are on the neighborhood pavement and really flat you can guess who wins that race! Im pretty sure at 30% more voltage you get 30% more rpm so if you had my motor at 48v you would get about 3600rpm. From what I can tell your torque motor is probably turning around 3400rpm so you may only be getting a "best case" 200rpm extra and thats assuming that the 36v (even juiced up) can properly turn your big ol' tires! For reference an extra 200rpm on your motor with 26" tires comes out to an extra ~1.25mph.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Unfortunately more "amps" will not get more speed.

Jake_Daddy, he already has 48v so putting a 36v motor would not go faster than his existing motor.

It is hard to get exact torque out of those HP numbers, the 2.5HP@3300rpm is likely developing more torque at the higher rpm than the 2.97HP@2800rpm.

Gallachera89, You can use just a solenoid and a push button, when I did that schematic 5 years ago I was thinking more on the safety side.

A high speed motor would definitely be better for You.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:10 PM   #14
Fairtax4me
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Comparing an apple to an orange here.
You're trying to achieve higher speed from a stock 36v motor than from a Modified 48V motor. If you had started with a stock 48v motor then you might have got 3 more mph, but you're already running with a motor that's been modified to run at a higher speed than a stock CC motor. And just because it's a "torque" design motor, doesn't mean its overall speed is slower than a stock motor.


You also have to consider tire size and overall gear ratio. Yes you can change to a speed design motor and get faster, but there's good chance you'll burn that motor out trying to run it off-road with those bigger tires on your cart.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:17 PM   #15
Gallachera89
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Sergio, thank you
but im still not aware of how i would wire in a push button and solenoid

Fairtax4me
i do alot of off road stuff and its not just your regular cruise the trail stuff.. cart sees mud and soft sand hills and trucks right along..

i have looked at other motors like the Rattle snake and by the numbers it has more HP and speed and torque then the D&D i have currently

So in all reality i need to pony up the money and just get it

But my mentality was if i had a torque motor it would suffer top end and thats why i thought the smaller 36v motor would wind up higher
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:24 PM   #16
Jake_Daddy
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Unfortunately more "amps" will not get more speed.

Jake_Daddy, he already has 48v so putting a 36v would not go faster than his existing motor.

Speed comes from rpm’s and I would guess there is a 36v motor that could put out more rpms than his current 48v torque motor, especially if that motor was run with the extra 12v, assuming it still had the torque to spin the tires. Unless I am wrong that the extra voltage gives the motor higher rpms. I know amps equals torque and speed is volts but not sure if it’s a linear relationship when adding the extra voltage. I understand the mechanics of motors and drive systems well but not the best on the properties of an electric motor!
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Old 01-08-2020, 04:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake_Daddy View Post
Speed comes from rpm’s and I would guess there is a 36v motor that could put out more rpms than his current 48v torque motor, especially if that motor was run with the extra 12v, assuming it still had the torque to spin the tires. Unless I am wrong that the extra voltage gives the motor higher rpms. I know amps equals torque and speed is volts but not sure if it’s a linear relationship when adding the extra voltage. I understand the mechanics of motors and drive systems well but not the best on the properties of an electric motor!
A 36v motor on a 36v cart runs slower than a 48v on a 48v cart

The slower 36v motor will run faster than it did at 36v if You apply 48v to it, probably as fast as the 48v motor does on a 48v cart already.
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Old 01-09-2020, 08:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

So my buddy has a pretty sweet golf cart and its rowdy af
He mentioned a company to me EMP inc
I emailed them with my cart info and this was his email back. Let me know what you guys think about these options please

CONCERNS
While I have an array of motor options, it is important that I mention the concerns I have about a couple of areas. Specifically:
- Tire type and inflation
- Mud and sand
I will talk a bit about each of these areas and then proceed with some motor options.

OVERSIZED ATV TIRES
The OD of the ATV tires does not concern me that much, but the tire pressure can be a concern. I would normally recommend tire inflation for most electric vehicles to be at 15 PSI or higher (if the tires are rated for it). Very low tire inflation sometimes occur with ATV tires and these make it very difficult to predict motor performance and also add considerable loading, causing rapid battery drain and frequently motor overload.

SAND, MUD
The issue we have with sand or mud is that there is such a wide variation in loading when talking about these. Heavily packed sand can be almost the same as driving on asphalt. On the other hand, deep loose sand can add tremendous loading. Mud is similar. Mud can be nothing much more than dirty water or it can be thick sticky clay. As a result, it is nearly impossible to design for applications described as "muddy" or "sandy" and we recommend, in general, that you avoid these types of media. Having said that, some common sense should be used. If you are going to drive through a short section only a few feet long, then this would be no big deal. But if you are going to drive through thick fluffy loose sand or deep sticky mud for thousands of feet at a time, then you will be putting great stress on the motor due to heat. If you are planning to use in a rough application, I encourage you to consider including the option of a motor thermostat that could be used to turn on an "overheat" light on the dash or cause an overheat beeper or buzzer to turn on.

PRESENT TOP SPEED
Your present top speed with motor 170-004-0002A is actually a little better than I would have expected with that model. I would have only expected about 19-20 MPH. I know that this does not seem like much difference, but it is actually a relatively good indicator that your vehicle must roll fairly well.
(I only mention this because so many times customers report their top speed and it is usually worse than I would calculate. This is almost always because there is something wrong somewhere else in the vehicle. Your situation seems better than most!)

2-SPEED SYSTEMS
I wasn't entirely sure, based on your questionnaire responses, whether you were entertaining the idea of a 2-speed motor or not. Just to cover all the bases, the next couple paragraphs explain a little bit about 2-speed motors and how they might help you. You won't hurt my feelings one way or another... I just wanted you to be aware of your options.

2-speed systems are best for people who have 2 distinctly different modes of driving. For example, people who use their golf cars for hunting will often buy 2-speed motors from EMP. They would operate in TORQUE mode when off road, climbing around on hills and trails, carrying heavier loads, when top speed is not the main concern. Then, when they got back on harder flatter more level surfaces, they could change to SPEED mode and pick up several miles per hour of top speed as well.

Now, if you are not sure whether you want a 2-speed system or not, I often encourage people to get the motor as 2-speed anyways. Why?
- EMP doesn't charge any more to make the motor 2-speed.**
- EMP would provide jumpers so you could try out each mode and you could leave these permanently connected if you want.
- You can order (or not) the switch kit anytime if you choose.
- You get "2 motors in one" so you have some flexibility.
(** The switch kit does cost extra if you want to switch "on the fly". Some people choose to use a paired contactor to switch between modes instead of the big mechanical switch. We don't sell them, but I can provide guidance on how to wire and where to buy.)

We have recently been offering some new features for motors, especially when the application appears to have the possibility of being rough or extreme. These are optional, but have value in certain circumstances.

HIGH SPEED BANDING
We normally recommend high speed banding when an application will result in motor RPM exceeding 6000 RPM. For your application as described (25” tires, 12.28:1 stock gears) this occurs at about 36 MPH. Since your target top speed is only 25-30 MPH and you are on flat ground, this is not really even necessary for your application. When we do add high speed banding, we add banding groove(s) in armature core, install banding in grooves and at ends of armature stack, cure, and apply epoxy varnish. The price adder for this feature is $100.

THERMOSTAT
We can install a N.O. (Normally Open) thermostat in the motor brush mech. This thermostat will close (like a switch) when the temperature gets too high. This can be used to switch power a light, buzzer, beeper, etc to warn of possible motor overheat. We install thermostat and bring leads out of the motor for customer use. We are working to lower thermostat pricing, but the present price adder for this feature is $50. (In some cases, it is necessary to upgrade to the heavy duty brush mechanism to accommodate the thermostat installation.)

HEAVY DUTY BRUSH MECHANISM
Several designs come standard with a heavy duty style brush mechanism. These designs are generally made out of materials that can withstand higher temperatures which can often occur in tougher applications. For motors that do not come standard with the heavy duty brush mechanism, we can upgrade to this style of brush mechanism for $25. (It is likely that just about any option I propose for you will actually already come with the heavy duty brush mechanism.)

MOTOR OPTIONS

On the bright side, there are actually several options that can meet your performance needs. Some motor options will be tougher than others. Some will be faster on grades than others. I will try to give enough information for you to compare/contrast the options, but if you still have any questions, please let me know.
For any of the options, EMP will modify electric and magnetic systems to meet your performance targets, install high performance low loss brushes, install new bearing, pre-lubricate input shaft, etc.

[You probably already realize this, but there are many options to achieve more than 25 MPH if the application is gentle. Your application which includes large oversized tires and off road use in sand an mud forces me to ignore many of these smaller motors as the likelihood of overload/burnout becomes very high. Burnout is never covered under warranty so it is important to build a design suitable to the vehicle specification, application demands, and performance targets.]


OPTION 1 - UPGRADED D&D MOTOR - 170-004-0002A-LR*
Your present motor is not a bad motor. It is pretty good at making ultimate torque. Top speed can be improved, but I would expect that top speed would actually be limited to about 24-25 MPH range, even with the upgrade.

Even though I know this option would not meet your top speed target, I wanted to present this option since this is what your present motor could be made to achieve.

RETAIL PRICING (if you send your motor for upgrade in advance):
$250 - Base Price
+ $ 0 - STANDARD - heavy duty brush mechanism
+ $ 50 - OPTIONAL - thermostat
+ $100 - LR5.x switch kit - optional and only for 2-speed motors
+ s/h - 62 pound motor / 5 pound switch kit

RETAIL PRICING (if EMP provides core motor):
$350 - Base Price
+ $250 - core charge
+ $ 0 - STANDARD - heavy duty brush mechanism
+ $ 50 - OPTIONAL - thermostat
+ $100 - LR5.x switch kit - optional and only for 2-speed motors
+ s/h - 62 pound motor / 5 pound switch kit


OPTION 2 - UPGRDED D&D MOTOR - ES-58-LR*
This option is actually the same size as the option 1 design. However, the armature is built with an alternate construction having fewer, but larger conductors. This helps to make motor go faster and also helps the motor handle the higher amp levels.
The brush mechanism comes standard as the heavy duty type and the brush cross section is the same as in option 1.

RETAIL PRICING (if EMP provides core motor):
$400 - Base Price
+ $250 - core charge
+ $ 0 - STANDARD - heavy duty brush mechanism
+ $ 50 - OPTIONAL - thermostat
+ $100 - LR5.x switch kit - optional and only for 2-speed motors
+ s/h - 62 pound motor / 5 pound switch kit


OPTION 3 – UPGRADED LIMO STYLE MOTOR – DA5-4006(47sl)-LR*
This is the largest of the options I will present. This is an upgraded limo motor with an alternate armature core installed (similar to the lower bar count in option 1). Again, this has lower armature bar count with larger conductors. The brush cross section is 2x that found in the stock motor and the brush mechanism comes standard as the heavy duty type.

This is a pretty big motor, so it would be critical that you make sure that it fits before ordering. (This motor did originally come in some of the Club Car transporter vehicles, so it does indeed fit in some Club Cars and often fits in lifted vehicles, but it would be smart to make sure.)



RETAIL PRICING:
$450 - Base Price
+ $275 - core charge
+ $ 0 - STANDARD - heavy duty brush mechanism
+ $ 50 - OPTIONAL – thermostat
+ $100 - LR5.x switch kit - optional and only for 2-speed motors
+ s/h - 65 pound motor / 5 pound switch kit

1989 CC Ds 6inch lift, D&D high torque, logisystems 700 amp controller, 25in tires,8x 6v2000 batteries, 400a solenoid
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:40 AM   #19
scottyb
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Default Re: Ive been bamboozled

Chuck and Andrea are very good at what they do. I have been sending customers to them for years. EMP is a great option for applications that do not fit off the shelf motors.
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:43 AM   #20
Gallachera89
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Chuck and Andrea are very good at what they do. I have been sending customers to them for years. EMP is a great option for applications that do not fit off the shelf motors.
Thats awesome to hear

In your experience scotty of those options what would be best do you think?
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